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[Opening theme music]

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Hello, and welcome to this 
episode of ArtsAbly in Conversation.

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My name is Diane Kolin.

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This series presents artists, academics,
and project leaders who dedicate their

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time and energy to a better accessibility
for people with disabilities in the arts.

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You can find more of these conversations 
on our website, artsably.com,

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which is spelled A-R-T-S-A-B-L-Y dot com.

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[Theme music]

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Today, ArtsAbly is in conversation 
with Heather White Luckow,

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aka Heather Feather,
a children's performer and educator

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 and a musicologist based in Montreal, in Canada.

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You can find the resources mentioned
by Heather Feather during this episode 

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on ArtsAbly's website in the blog section.

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[Heather counts in rhythm.]
One, two,

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One, two, three, four.

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[Guitar and battery playing 
the intro of Fill Your Bucket]

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[Heather sings]
I have a happiness bucket inside me,

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and you have one as well.

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When the buckets are full,
we're really happy.

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But when they are empty,
we don't feel so swell.

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When we are down,
we can do things that feel good,

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like ride a bike or joke with a friend.

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We each have the power to choose to do
happy things, to fill our bucket,

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to feel better again.

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Fill up your bucket, fill up your bucket.

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There's a bucket for you, a bucket for me,

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for all of your friends and your whole family.

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[The band plays.]

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[End of the excerpt.]

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Welcome to this new episode
of ArtsAbly in Conversation.

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Today, I am with Heather White Luckow
 aka Heather Feather

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who is a children's performer and educator
and also musicologist

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based in Montreal, in Canada.
Welcome, Heather.

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Thank you so much.
It's wonderful to be here.

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Well, you have an impressive

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field of activities in what you call

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'Kindie' music, which is kids
and indie music combined.

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I love this term, by the way.

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When did that all start?

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What led you to that work with children?

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As a musician yourself, yourself,

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where did it start?

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My name is Heather.

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I have multiple sclerosis.

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Today actually is the first day of 
Multiple Sclerosis Awareness Month in Canada.

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Orange is one of my theme colors when I
perform because it's an important aspect

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of who I am and who I present to children.

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How did I start in music?

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I think in the province of Newfoundland,
we are born singing, and

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 it's a very musical place.

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All my relatives are very musical.

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My dad is a very,
very good amateur guitarist.

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He was an English professor
and then an English teacher.

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My mother has a beautiful voice,
and my whole family sang,

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and like many other families, whenever 
we were together, we didn't watch TV,

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 we didn't play a board game, we sang.

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This was how culture is handed down,
how lessons are learned,

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how entertainment is had.

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Music was always important to me growing
up in my family and in my culture.

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I wanted to be a classical musician,

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and I focused on classical 
music all the way through.

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I think I first heard my first atonal,
so 20th century, not tonal,

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not with scales, but more mathematically
oriented music when I was 12,

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and I was instantly drawn to it,
which is a little bit odd, I think.

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But at least my piano teacher
told me it was very odd.

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But I loved it, and I wanted
to know how it worked.

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I started to play the French horn,

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as a joke, because I was bored playing

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clarinet, and my band director said, Well,
why don't you take this the supply closet

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over the summer
and I'll give you a record,

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so you know how it sounds, like a 33,
and a book to learn the notes.

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I taught myself to play over 
the summer, and that became 

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my primary instrument along with singing.

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I started my undergraduate
and started writing music then.

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My interest was fiddle music.

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I wanted to compose for a film,
and for now, the equivalent

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of writing for prompts for Netflix.

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I got a scholarship to go to 
Bowling Green State University

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in Ohio, so I continued on there as
a composer and then a music theorist.

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In French, we say it's "musicologie,"
it's kind of the same field, 

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but I'm a little bit more on 
the numbers side in theory.

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I came back to Canada to live
in Montreal to do my PhD in that field.

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Up until then, I had always 
performed professionally 

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or semi-professionally on the side,
either on my call, on my horn, or

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singing, and talk everywhere I was.

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So teaching also runs in the family.

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And then I was diagnosed with multiple
sclerosis and everything changed.

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And it was as I was finishing the PhD.

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I took I took a few years off to figure
out what I was going to do next.

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I started family with my husband,
and I just loved being a mother.

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And I had worked with children a lot when
I was younger,

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and I went back to working with children.

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I was asked, Could you do a class
at our for the preschoolers.

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And that's how I started.

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I hadn't worked with children
for about 20 years.

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And it was really, really rewarding.

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And then I decided,
This keeps me feeling healthy.

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I feel happy.
I don't feel stressed.

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This is a really great
way to spend my time.

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I'm enjoying this,
and I find it rewarding.

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And the children and the
families like it, too.

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So that's how I started
on that path in maybe 2012, 2013.

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And then I started doing
it full-time in 2017.

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That's how I found children's music.

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It was a big career shift, but in a way,
a return to my roots because it's making

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music within families,
which is what I did growing up.

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What made you record
your first songs for children?

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That's another good question.

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I always write for the children that I
have because children

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are always exploring and growing and
from an educational perspective

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and from psychology of a whole child,
you have all these different ways

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in which children grow as they develop.

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I wanted to make sure that to each program
that I went to see,

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because I started visiting 
preschools and schools,

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 that I was addressing the children's needs.

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So specific songs were written
at the request of the schools.

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Like one school asked me to write a song
about what's known in Quebec as

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the construction holiday, when all
the trucks stopped working for two weeks.

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So I could teach them what that was.

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Or another one wanted to teach about
migration, the fall migration 

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of Canadian wildlife and where they go.

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So that was a really packed song.

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So all of these were in a little sketchbook.

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When 2020 happened and 
the world stayed home, 

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all of a sudden, I wasn't going out 
anymore to work with children.

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I thought, I should record some of these.

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I started then refining my work
and which ones I thought would be most

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beneficial to a wide variety of children
and not just the specific,

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just some specific classes.

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That's how that started.

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It was a side project.

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What's funny is that you have
a classical training, but all these songs,

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they have jazz, they have
rock, they have guitar, they have

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bounce arounds that change style.

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All these collaborators you 
met to create these songs,

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how did you meet them and what
was the collaboration like?

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That was really exciting.

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I had an idea of what I wanted
each song to sound like.

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Part of being a music theorist
and a composition teacher is knowing

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how to write colors of instruments
and in different styles to

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make it sound like it's in a style.

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I knew I did want jazz musicians because I
wanted everything to be

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united through jazz and swing.

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I started looking for jazz
musicians in Montreal.

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I started with my friend
Stratsimir Dimitrov,

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who is one of the co-owners
of Alchemist Studios in Montreal North.

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He said, Well, I have some
fellows that I usually play with.

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Let's start with Jim Doxas.

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He's a fabulous jazz drummer, and he's
high in demand internationally,

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and especially between
the Montreal to New York quarter.

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Then Jim said, Well, I've got this, 
my best friend, Adrian Vedady, plays bass,

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so let's take him along.

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As the band got recruited,
we recorded that first album together.

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It was a wonderful experience.

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Going on to the second album, people
had changed what they were doing.

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At the time, we were still a little bit
in lockdown, so they had more time

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to record, and now everybody's everywhere.

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The only person who was able 
to return was the pianist,

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but we also then recruited still people
from within the jazz community

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and I also decided to work with a man named
Dean Jones, who has won Grammy Awards

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for producing children's music.

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He's done writing
for Nickelodeon, for Disney.

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I think he's done Sesame Street.

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I thought, I want to bring this second album

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to somebody who knows the commercial
market because I know what I like,

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but would other people like it, too?

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Because there is that commercial aspect.

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You want your music heard,
but it needs to be accessible.

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We also do want people to stream it and
try to be interested in listening to it.

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Working with Dean was really, really fun.

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I went to about an hour and a half north
of New York City in September

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and took, again, my teaching sketchbook.

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I had 15, 20 songs, and I opened it
up and I said, This is what I have.

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Let's pick up the 10
and make an album out of it.

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He said, This is going to be a lot of fun.

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We jammed and then we picked eight
to start with, and then the rest was

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done between Montreal and New York.

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He also has a circle of musicians,
professional special musicians,

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primarily that play in New York City,
and they came out to record as well.

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It was neat. It was two studios, two countries, 
and the tracks were being emailed back and forth.

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It was super fun.

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There is also a strong education
component in these songs.

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When you teach children these songs,
how do you work with them?

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What's the process of explaining what
immigration is or what fruits are

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or what the dinosaur is, all that?

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That's fun.

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Children are like sponges
and they love to learn.

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They're the songs that are very much
the learning about the natural world,

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learning about science.

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When children have music
to attach facts onto,

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it sinks in a lot better.

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Music is used in collaboration with other
things when we teach in all subjects.

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There's going to be your
math teacher in school.

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My son's math teacher in grade five
brought in a lot of music

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about math to help them remember how
to do order operations or something.

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I just did the same thing.

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Very, very fun.

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Then there's different types of music
that I write to make sure

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that it's not just cognitive.

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For instance, grows to fine motor.

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I work with a lot of children
that might have cerebral palsy.

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They might have other differences
or some challenges.

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Then you have your children with no
challenges, but they are all

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trying to achieve milestones.

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As we grow, the normal progression
of a healthy child from 

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crawling to bouncing, to be able to 
stand, to bounce, and then to jump.

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Then first it's going to be one foot,
and then it's going to be two feet.

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To write songs that challenge
the child to achieve the milestone.

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Then the latest album is
more social emotional growth.

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It has to do with how to create community.

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Disability plays a large part in this one,
as well as racism,

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standing up against - saying diversity is
a good thing, and encouraging children

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to not judge a book by its cover
and to to listen to these little stories

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that can be taken at face value,
but you can also think,

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Wait, I can ask them later.

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Do you think that the shark was really
a mean guy in that song,

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or did he just want to play?

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But you were afraid when he came
out because he was a shark, right?

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He didn't want to eat his friends.

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In this song, he had a birthday cake,
and he liked to bake,

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and he wanted to share his birthday cake.

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Can you tell us more about this album?

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This album is super exciting.

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It's called "Together," and it's
probably the best word I could think of.

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Short to the point about
everyone has a role in society.

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Everyone has importance.

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Everyone has value.

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Everyone has something
to bring to the table.

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As human beings in the same world,
we are better when we work together,

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when we're helping one another,
when we're supporting one another.

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The first song in the album is called
Party, and it starts out

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The first verse is, If you walk
or if you roll, if you use a walker or

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00:15:05,871 --> 00:15:07,840
a cane or a chair, just come in the door.

234
00:15:07,873 --> 00:15:10,976
It don't matter how you move,
it only matters that you came.

235
00:15:10,976 --> 00:15:14,179
Because everyone in the world is unique,
but we're all the same.

236
00:15:14,179 --> 00:15:19,184
We're all the same in that. In an ideal
world, we're all welcome to the party.

237
00:15:19,184 --> 00:15:24,456
Everyone is welcome.
We make space for everyone.

238
00:15:24,456 --> 00:15:26,992
Some songs about how we can...

239
00:15:26,992 --> 00:15:29,995
Children, as they're growing,
they depend on their parents when they

240
00:15:29,995 --> 00:15:34,066
fall down to say, It's okay,
it's going to be all right.

241
00:15:34,066 --> 00:15:37,236
Around the age of four,
they start to self-regulate,

242
00:15:37,236 --> 00:15:41,640
so they are able to pull themselves
together and tell themselves, Oh,

243
00:15:41,674 --> 00:15:44,610
that's okay, I'll be fine,
and to calm themselves.

244
00:15:44,610 --> 00:15:47,079
So even starting at three,
and then at four,

245
00:15:47,112 --> 00:15:50,449
they're moving away from the parents
and they're doing more

246
00:15:50,449 --> 00:15:54,386
interpersonal relationships.

247
00:15:54,386 --> 00:15:58,023
And so a song,
Fill Your Bucket, is about that.

248
00:15:58,023 --> 00:16:01,961
So when I'm sad,
I can choose to I fill up my own

249
00:16:01,994 --> 00:16:04,196
happiness bucket that's inside of me.

250
00:16:04,196 --> 00:16:05,464
I carry it wherever I go.

251
00:16:05,497 --> 00:16:10,703
The only purpose of it is to hold
my happy feelings about myself.

252
00:16:10,703 --> 00:16:14,206
But when I'm sad,
I can do something for myself.

253
00:16:14,206 --> 00:16:16,208
I don't need it from the outside.

254
00:16:16,208 --> 00:16:18,610
It's not extrinsic, it's intrinsic.

255
00:16:18,610 --> 00:16:21,847
For me, I ride a bicycle,
and that's the lyrics I used,

256
00:16:21,847 --> 00:16:25,317
or joke with a friend,
that fills my happiness bucket.

257
00:16:25,317 --> 00:16:30,089
Now, did you know that you can fill somebody 
else's happiness bucket at the same time?

258
00:16:30,089 --> 00:16:32,791
I can say that: My friend, would you
like to play together?

259
00:16:32,791 --> 00:16:34,226
Would you like to play a game?

260
00:16:34,226 --> 00:16:35,728
Would you like to go to a movie?

261
00:16:35,728 --> 00:16:39,965
All of a sudden, I'm happy,
so I'm with my friend, but they're happy

262
00:16:39,965 --> 00:16:42,134
because I made them
happy at the same time.

263
00:16:42,134 --> 00:16:44,837
Or you give a friend a compliment,
and when they're happy,

264
00:16:44,870 --> 00:16:46,772
it in turn makes you happy.

265
00:16:46,772 --> 00:16:50,876
You can also protect your bucket
from other people being mean,

266
00:16:50,876 --> 00:16:52,411
put a lid on your bucket.

267
00:16:52,411 --> 00:16:54,413
We still lead with kindness.

268
00:16:54,413 --> 00:16:58,751
We try to give good examples so
that that person will not be a bucket

269
00:16:58,751 --> 00:17:02,654
dipper and will be able to fill
up their own bucket someday.

270
00:17:02,654 --> 00:17:08,227
Then there are other songs about inclusion
from all different perspectives of

271
00:17:08,227 --> 00:17:10,896
everybody needs someone to cheer for them.

272
00:17:10,896 --> 00:17:13,165
Everybody needs a great big hug.

273
00:17:13,165 --> 00:17:16,301
Everybody needs someone
to know their name.

274
00:17:16,301 --> 00:17:20,139
Find someone sitting on their
own and give them some love.

275
00:17:20,139 --> 00:17:23,909
Then the chorus is from the
perspective of the child.

276
00:17:23,909 --> 00:17:28,947
I only want to be part of your game,
so please include me.

277
00:17:28,947 --> 00:17:30,783
Don't look past me.

278
00:17:30,783 --> 00:17:37,656
I need some friends who know my name,
so please include me and love me who I am.

279
00:17:37,656 --> 00:17:40,959
These are songs for children that are
starting at four, but an older

280
00:17:40,993 --> 00:17:42,494
set than the last album.

281
00:17:42,494 --> 00:17:48,233
This new one is more, I'm going to say
K to 6, up to grade 6 to grade 7.

282
00:17:48,233 --> 00:17:55,874
And yeah, trying to make the world a more
kind, mutually supportive place

283
00:17:55,874 --> 00:17:59,044
where we cheer on our friends
because the reference.

284
00:17:59,044 --> 00:18:05,217
This one song, If we are in a race
and you win, I don't need to be sad.

285
00:18:05,217 --> 00:18:08,587
Even though I lost,
you're my friend, so I should

286
00:18:08,587 --> 00:18:11,790
celebrate you because you're my friend.

287
00:18:11,790 --> 00:18:14,860
And when I celebrate you,
that makes me happy, too.

288
00:18:16,228 --> 00:18:18,931
This is the last
album that you released, right?

289
00:18:19,364 --> 00:18:23,035
This is the one that's coming out
in June, and that single is out.

290
00:18:23,435 --> 00:18:29,842
The three songs we just chatted about,
The Bucket Song, Party, and Happy For You,

291
00:18:29,875 --> 00:18:33,212
have all been released as singles.

292
00:18:33,212 --> 00:18:35,714
They're out now.
They've been out for a few months.

293
00:18:36,315 --> 00:18:39,985
What's the plan with this album launch?

294
00:18:39,985 --> 00:18:41,453
Are you going to tour?

295
00:18:41,787 --> 00:18:43,388
I hope so.

296
00:18:43,388 --> 00:18:46,191
There are some things in the works,
but it hasn't been finalized.

297
00:18:46,258 --> 00:18:49,261
I'm hoping to do a lot of school shows.

298
00:18:49,261 --> 00:18:51,830
To do them in blocks where I can take it.

299
00:18:51,864 --> 00:18:57,302
Then to have songs from my last album,
I already have them in French.

300
00:18:57,302 --> 00:19:02,174
When I go elsewhere in Canada,
I can do a bilingual show.

301
00:19:02,174 --> 00:19:05,544
When we're talking about healthy eating,
because you were talking about the one

302
00:19:05,577 --> 00:19:07,779
with the "why do we eat healthy?"

303
00:19:07,813 --> 00:19:09,281
I'm saying, I can eat a rainbow.

304
00:19:09,314 --> 00:19:10,849
Why I eat the rainbow?

305
00:19:10,849 --> 00:19:13,252
Because it helps me grow
up to be big and strong.

306
00:19:13,252 --> 00:19:15,821
That one's easily translated.

307
00:19:15,821 --> 00:19:21,426
"Je peux manger une banane,"
instead of "I can eat a banana."

308
00:19:21,426 --> 00:19:24,663
I've been working on that so that, yeah,
it'll be a bilingual will show,

309
00:19:24,663 --> 00:19:27,900
with bilingual question and answer periods.

310
00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:31,904
I hope it will - These songs are meant

311
00:19:31,937 --> 00:19:34,973
to spark conversation, to make you think.

312
00:19:34,973 --> 00:19:37,976
There's often a lot
of different layers in there.

313
00:19:37,976 --> 00:19:41,513
It's accessible for a kindergarten or
it's accessible for a three-year-old.

314
00:19:41,513 --> 00:19:43,849
But a kid in grade six is going to read
a lot more into it,

315
00:19:43,849 --> 00:19:47,185
and they're going to get the much bigger
picture, probably at the adult level.

316
00:19:47,386 --> 00:19:49,655
We could do those with the songs.

317
00:19:49,655 --> 00:19:53,792
It's the questions that get
asked even within the family.

318
00:19:53,792 --> 00:19:56,762
Oh, well, I really thought
that ending was surprising.

319
00:19:56,795 --> 00:20:00,232
I wasn't expecting that to happen.

320
00:20:00,232 --> 00:20:04,303
Why did that happen? What does that mean?

321
00:20:05,037 --> 00:20:09,274
One thing that is interesting is you
created your music company

322
00:20:09,274 --> 00:20:13,111
with the idea to put
the children and the parents together

323
00:20:13,145 --> 00:20:18,050
in a room and to make them work together
on these songs or

324
00:20:18,050 --> 00:20:20,419
have fun together on these songs.

325
00:20:20,419 --> 00:20:24,056
What was the idea behind the company?

326
00:20:24,056 --> 00:20:25,924
Am I correct by assuming that?

327
00:20:26,625 --> 00:20:29,294
Yeah. That's the other part of what
I do is called WeeJam.

328
00:20:29,294 --> 00:20:32,531
Before I was a performer,
I created a parent

329
00:20:32,531 --> 00:20:37,869
and child music company that's what was
then hired up to go into preschools

330
00:20:37,869 --> 00:20:42,007
with the educators of the children
in place of the parents of the children.

331
00:20:42,007 --> 00:20:47,746
The idea is that when I was growing up
in New Finland, I wasn't just

332
00:20:47,746 --> 00:20:49,448
observing and listening to music.

333
00:20:49,448 --> 00:20:52,551
I was actively making
the music with my family.

334
00:20:52,551 --> 00:20:58,223
It was a collaborative activity that
meant a lot more

335
00:20:58,223 --> 00:21:02,794
because there are prosocial bonds that can 
be formed when we make music together.

336
00:21:02,794 --> 00:21:04,730
There are things that we create.

337
00:21:04,730 --> 00:21:08,166
It's like it's bigger
than the sum of its parts.

338
00:21:08,166 --> 00:21:11,303
I wanted to bring that to families.

339
00:21:11,303 --> 00:21:14,406
Some families, the parents don't 
know how to play any instruments.

340
00:21:14,406 --> 00:21:17,743
I have 10-12 ukuleles on the wall,

341
00:21:17,743 --> 00:21:21,113
and I have them painted with 
nail polish for the fingerings.

342
00:21:21,113 --> 00:21:25,751
Children are working on their fine motor
skills and their pincer grip

343
00:21:25,817 --> 00:21:28,620
by learning to play a C-chord.

344
00:21:28,620 --> 00:21:30,722
Then eventually, they get
to the right fingering.

345
00:21:30,756 --> 00:21:32,791
But the parents are doing it too.

346
00:21:32,791 --> 00:21:36,495
The parents go out and buy the ukulele,
and then they go home,

347
00:21:36,495 --> 00:21:42,901
and now all of a sudden they have two,
and daddy and child are playing together.

348
00:21:43,869 --> 00:21:45,871
Yeah, that's very nice.

349
00:21:45,871 --> 00:21:50,042
It's really, really rewarding, 
honestly, to see

350
00:21:50,042 --> 00:21:54,279
parents  interacting with your children at 
their level and to see them growing together.

351
00:21:54,313 --> 00:21:57,382
The parents actually modeling,
it's okay, I'm learning, too.

352
00:21:57,382 --> 00:21:58,650
That's very special.

353
00:21:59,151 --> 00:22:02,587
Children can go back at home and say...

354
00:22:02,587 --> 00:22:06,525
You remember the part where...

355
00:22:07,526 --> 00:22:13,999
Who are you when you're teaching
these songs? You're Heather Feather?

356
00:22:14,833 --> 00:22:16,435
Sometimes.
Sometimes I'm not.

357
00:22:16,501 --> 00:22:18,737
It depends on where I am.

358
00:22:18,737 --> 00:22:21,840
The oldest classes that I have
at the preschools and in

359
00:22:21,873 --> 00:22:25,477
my home studio, I can be.
Absolutely.

360
00:22:25,477 --> 00:22:27,813
The children are able to understand.

361
00:22:27,813 --> 00:22:33,352
I also take babies, so that's very
much more on developmental milestones.

362
00:22:33,352 --> 00:22:39,224
You have your spheres of language,
cognitive development,

363
00:22:39,224 --> 00:22:43,128
physical development, finding gross
motor skills in your language.

364
00:22:43,128 --> 00:22:49,101
So getting those in there
and just encouraging the parents to have

365
00:22:49,134 --> 00:22:53,372
fun with the children so that as they
grow, they can grow through my program.

366
00:22:53,372 --> 00:22:55,607
Some of them go off, they do other things.

367
00:22:55,607 --> 00:22:57,943
Some go for a year and then come back.

368
00:22:57,943 --> 00:23:00,445
So they pop in and out of the program.

369
00:23:00,445 --> 00:23:07,419
And as long as the children come
back into an age-appropriate class,

370
00:23:07,419 --> 00:23:09,588
it's like they never left.

371
00:23:09,588 --> 00:23:11,890
Because those children are also
collaborative and they

372
00:23:11,890 --> 00:23:13,558
work with one another.

373
00:23:13,592 --> 00:23:18,463
One child can go up to the other and say,
Try using this finger instead of this one

374
00:23:18,463 --> 00:23:21,066
because they interact like a family.

375
00:23:21,099 --> 00:23:24,903
They've internalized
the social lessons of helping.

376
00:23:25,771 --> 00:23:28,907
Then in other school, you're Ms. Heather?

377
00:23:29,374 --> 00:23:32,444
In some schools,
they call me Heather Feather.

378
00:23:32,444 --> 00:23:35,247
The name actually came because I am
in Quebec and the children

379
00:23:35,247 --> 00:23:37,249
couldn't say Heather at all.

380
00:23:37,716 --> 00:23:44,790
I got "Eder," which was okay,
but it's not a common name in Montreal.

381
00:23:44,790 --> 00:23:46,458
It's an English name.

382
00:23:46,458 --> 00:23:50,429
They knew, though, what a feather is.

383
00:23:50,429 --> 00:23:53,031
Children, English or French,
knew the word feather.

384
00:23:53,031 --> 00:23:54,866
I guess they use them in arts and crafts.

385
00:23:54,933 --> 00:23:59,304
In the preschool, they started
calling me Ms. Fedda or Ms. Feather.

386
00:23:59,304 --> 00:24:02,607
I thought, Well, I should call myself
that because they can say that.

387
00:24:02,607 --> 00:24:04,442
That's where Heather Feather came from.

388
00:24:04,476 --> 00:24:08,680
Some call me Ms. Heather,
some will say Heather Feather.

389
00:24:09,514 --> 00:24:15,420
Whatever they call me, as long
as we're learning and having fun.

390
00:24:16,221 --> 00:24:20,192
But I'm thinking of these conversations
at home where the child comes back

391
00:24:20,225 --> 00:24:24,095
and says, Well, I don't
understand exactly what...

392
00:24:24,262 --> 00:24:28,266
I mean, I saw a song about accessibility
and diversity and inclusion but

393
00:24:28,266 --> 00:24:30,368
I don't understand really what it is.

394
00:24:30,402 --> 00:24:35,240
Then it's up to parents to have
this conversation with them.

395
00:24:35,907 --> 00:24:41,746
But it's a fantastic starter
to have these conversations.

396
00:24:41,780 --> 00:24:47,719
Also, the parents sometimes don't have
that - never had that conversation

397
00:24:47,752 --> 00:24:50,789
before, whatever it is about

398
00:24:50,789 --> 00:24:56,328
immigration or about human rights.

399
00:24:56,328 --> 00:24:59,197
But that explained
to children through songs.

400
00:24:59,197 --> 00:25:03,301
I have a question that is related to that.

401
00:25:03,301 --> 00:25:08,573
It's about the role of accessibility

402
00:25:08,573 --> 00:25:12,944
in culture in general or in disability

403
00:25:12,978 --> 00:25:17,382
culture, as we can sometimes
call it in disability studies.

404
00:25:18,016 --> 00:25:24,956
What is it for you to be in a world where
you promote accessibility in the arts?

405
00:25:25,557 --> 00:25:31,196
I like it. I only stepped into that part of the role
in the last maybe two or three years.

406
00:25:31,196 --> 00:25:36,701
Three years. Before that, I just didn't bring
up that I had multiple sclerosis.

407
00:25:36,701 --> 00:25:39,671
On the days that I wasn't feeling well,
I didn't go into work.

408
00:25:39,671 --> 00:25:43,775
Nobody really saw it,
and nobody sees chronic fatigue.

409
00:25:43,775 --> 00:25:48,246
If I have a problem with my hand and I
can't finger-pick,

410
00:25:48,246 --> 00:25:50,849
I could always bring the ukulele,
and no one would know

411
00:25:50,849 --> 00:25:52,550
that my fingers weren't working.

412
00:25:52,717 --> 00:25:57,822
If I don't tell you, you won't know
because I have my own coping mechanisms.

413
00:25:57,822 --> 00:26:04,329
Stepping into that has been
empowering and I really enjoy it.

414
00:26:04,329 --> 00:26:10,368
I like the idea that being more open about
it now and now moving to the other end

415
00:26:10,368 --> 00:26:15,073
of actually promoting these rights,
it gives others the courage to ask

416
00:26:15,140 --> 00:26:18,209
for what they need,
to not be afraid to disclose themselves,

417
00:26:18,209 --> 00:26:22,280
to see themselves in you, and to say, Wow,
okay, you figured out how you

418
00:26:22,314 --> 00:26:24,849
can still work in this career.

419
00:26:24,849 --> 00:26:26,985
Can we brainstorm?

420
00:26:26,985 --> 00:26:29,321
How do I do it?

421
00:26:30,588 --> 00:26:33,892
It's really, really rewarding.

422
00:26:34,326 --> 00:26:37,529
I feel the same way as I do
working with the children.

423
00:26:37,796 --> 00:26:42,801
It's a privilege and an honor when
somebody takes you into their

424
00:26:42,834 --> 00:26:45,337
confidence in that way.

425
00:26:45,337 --> 00:26:48,273
As for me being the one that's just
sending it out there,

426
00:26:48,306 --> 00:26:52,410
I find it's easy with children because
they're understanding,

427
00:26:52,410 --> 00:26:55,647
they want to understand,
and they want to ask questions.

428
00:26:56,481 --> 00:26:58,717
There's nothing wrong
with letting them ask early.

429
00:26:58,750 --> 00:27:02,787
Now, when I have a bad day,
I can I remember times in the past couple

430
00:27:02,821 --> 00:27:06,725
of years, I've taken my walker
because I was so dizzy, I needed it.

431
00:27:06,725 --> 00:27:08,460
A cane wasn't enough.

432
00:27:08,460 --> 00:27:12,931
So I came in with my four wheeled walker
with the seat so I could take

433
00:27:12,931 --> 00:27:14,699
a break to sit, and I have my breaks.

434
00:27:14,699 --> 00:27:18,169
And the children said, What is that, Heather Feather?

435
00:27:19,471 --> 00:27:25,076
One of the Jewish schools I teach at,
my bubs got one, but why do you have one?

436
00:27:25,110 --> 00:27:27,379
You don't have white hair.

437
00:27:27,379 --> 00:27:31,249
So it was a great discussion.

438
00:27:31,249 --> 00:27:36,221
I explain why I use one,
how it's a positive thing,

439
00:27:36,221 --> 00:27:40,825
how it helps me to do what I want to do,
just like you wear glasses and it

440
00:27:40,859 --> 00:27:43,495
helps you to see further, right?

441
00:27:43,495 --> 00:27:46,431
I can use this and I can go places

442
00:27:46,431 --> 00:27:49,901
that I wouldn't be able to go to and I can go further.

443
00:27:51,036 --> 00:27:54,606
What is adaptive equipment?
Why do we use it?

444
00:27:54,606 --> 00:27:57,208
What's a hearing aid?
Why would you use that?

445
00:27:57,208 --> 00:28:02,714
Does this make you any less pinnable? Well, no.

446
00:28:02,714 --> 00:28:06,818
You're always going to find a child
in each class that has some difference,

447
00:28:06,818 --> 00:28:09,954
and the children have already
accepted this one child.

448
00:28:09,954 --> 00:28:13,525
Now it's me and I have a difference,
and these couple of children have

449
00:28:13,525 --> 00:28:17,362
a difference, and it just becomes
a wonderful It's a whole thing.

450
00:28:18,530 --> 00:28:21,966
It's funny because I'm also a voice
teacher and I use a wheelchair.

451
00:28:21,966 --> 00:28:23,435
I teach older kids.

452
00:28:23,468 --> 00:28:29,708
I teach nine plus, until - 
not 18, but not far.

453
00:28:29,708 --> 00:28:34,846
It was always interesting to see how

454
00:28:34,846 --> 00:28:37,415
students react

455
00:28:37,415 --> 00:28:41,219
to being in a room with someone
in a wheelchair and not really asking

456
00:28:41,219 --> 00:28:45,356
questions because my parents 
told me it's not really polite, right?

457
00:28:45,356 --> 00:28:50,729
But at a certain point it was like, 
Can I ask a question?

458
00:28:51,529 --> 00:28:54,232
Ah! Finally, go for it.

459
00:28:54,265 --> 00:28:56,000
Ask any question.

460
00:28:56,034 --> 00:28:58,136
Which is the mark of a true teacher.

461
00:28:58,136 --> 00:29:00,939
You want the questions asked.
Good for you.

462
00:29:00,939 --> 00:29:02,707
Yes.
[Laughs.]

463
00:29:02,707 --> 00:29:06,711
With children, as you say, I also did ECM,

464
00:29:06,711 --> 00:29:09,147
so Early Childhood Music,

465
00:29:09,147 --> 00:29:10,582
and that's no problem.

466
00:29:10,615 --> 00:29:15,420
I always had someone on my knees
and someone like, Can I push you?

467
00:29:15,453 --> 00:29:16,788
Or, Can I run after you?

468
00:29:17,055 --> 00:29:22,293
Never had an issue with these
children this age, four to maybe six.

469
00:29:23,094 --> 00:29:29,534
They're very understanding,
and they don't see anything as...

470
00:29:29,734 --> 00:29:32,303
They don't see any
differences as negative.

471
00:29:32,303 --> 00:29:35,607
They just say it's
a difference, but so what?

472
00:29:36,374 --> 00:29:39,677
We know each other from an organization

473
00:29:39,677 --> 00:29:43,948
called RAMPD, Recording Artists and
Music Professionals with Disabilities.

474
00:29:43,948 --> 00:29:47,018
First of all, you are a Pro Member of RAMPD,

475
00:29:47,051 --> 00:29:53,858
meaning you're really embracing now
this strength of you.

476
00:29:54,425 --> 00:29:57,862
Also, we are not a lot of musicologists,

477
00:29:57,929 --> 00:30:00,632
but I think you're the only

478
00:30:00,632 --> 00:30:02,700
music professional who works with children.

479
00:30:02,734 --> 00:30:06,805
I'm not sure, but I think you are
in the whole pack of professionals,

480
00:30:06,805 --> 00:30:09,140
and we have a lot right now.
It's 80.

481
00:30:09,140 --> 00:30:11,009
So thank you.

482
00:30:11,576 --> 00:30:14,179
It's been a really great group to join.

483
00:30:14,179 --> 00:30:17,081
It's fabulous.
I'm really happy I did.

484
00:30:17,949 --> 00:30:23,388
I know some teach younger children,
but I don't think any teach -

485
00:30:23,388 --> 00:30:28,259
any do songs for children themselves.

486
00:30:28,259 --> 00:30:35,633
I'm so happy when I see our conversations 
in these groups that you can represent that.

487
00:30:36,801 --> 00:30:39,103
I really like being able to do it, too,

488
00:30:39,137 --> 00:30:44,475
because I only found out about RAMPD

489
00:30:44,475 --> 00:30:48,680
through Andrew & Polly when they were
nominated for a Grammy for

490
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:51,749
Best Children's Album of the Year.

491
00:30:51,749 --> 00:30:55,086
Not last year, but the year before.
Andrew is blind.

492
00:30:55,920 --> 00:31:01,125
I saw him standing next 
to Lachi and thought, 

493
00:31:01,125 --> 00:31:02,927
Wait, what's this group called?

494
00:31:02,927 --> 00:31:06,130
It's because I was following them
on Instagram and I'm saying,

495
00:31:06,130 --> 00:31:08,499
I'm so proud of you.
Congratulations.

496
00:31:08,499 --> 00:31:10,001
Then they said something about RAMPD.

497
00:31:10,034 --> 00:31:12,270
Then I said, Well, what is RAMPD?

498
00:31:12,971 --> 00:31:17,542
There's one other member that I
know that does children's music.

499
00:31:17,542 --> 00:31:18,376
Who's that?

500
00:31:18,376 --> 00:31:20,311
They're Pro members, but they're lovely.

501
00:31:20,345 --> 00:31:22,146
Andrew & Polly, and they're so talented.

502
00:31:22,146 --> 00:31:23,014
Oh, yeah.

503
00:31:23,014 --> 00:31:24,249
They live in California.

504
00:31:24,249 --> 00:31:25,250
Yes, true.

505
00:31:25,283 --> 00:31:27,352
I remember now.

506
00:31:27,352 --> 00:31:29,654
Sorry, Andrew.

507
00:31:29,654 --> 00:31:33,424
But I remember because that's
the way I found out about the group.

508
00:31:34,926 --> 00:31:35,493
Yes.

509
00:31:35,660 --> 00:31:38,263
Yeah, it's a fantastic group.

510
00:31:38,263 --> 00:31:43,301
They transformed the way
the Grammy Awards are held.

511
00:31:43,301 --> 00:31:46,704
They transformed discussions
in the Recording Academy.

512
00:31:46,738 --> 00:31:51,476
Lachi is really such a great
motor of this group, really.

513
00:31:51,509 --> 00:31:52,043
Absolutely.

514
00:31:52,076 --> 00:31:55,513
When I was at Folk Alliance International
representing RAMPD,

515
00:31:55,513 --> 00:32:00,084
it was just wonderful to be able
to have so many people that had come.

516
00:32:00,818 --> 00:32:02,921
It's a similar thing.

517
00:32:02,954 --> 00:32:06,991
They're either programming for festivals,
they're venue owners,

518
00:32:06,991 --> 00:32:11,529
and they want to know how to make sure
that the spaces are more accessible.

519
00:32:11,529 --> 00:32:15,066
Processes of application is including
everybody, that there's

520
00:32:15,099 --> 00:32:17,435
nobody that can't apply.

521
00:32:18,036 --> 00:32:20,905
How do you make sure you're
getting really representative?

522
00:32:20,905 --> 00:32:26,210
Are you scaring people away that are part
of the disabled community before they even

523
00:32:26,210 --> 00:32:29,547
get a chance to think
about going in the door?

524
00:32:29,580 --> 00:32:32,917
Yeah, some really great discussions there.

525
00:32:33,484 --> 00:32:36,087
Okay, so I have a last question for you.

526
00:32:36,087 --> 00:32:40,658
It's about people who might have counted
in your career or might have

527
00:32:40,658 --> 00:32:44,529
motivated you, might have
launched you to a certain path.

528
00:32:44,529 --> 00:32:50,068
If you had to think of one or maybe two
people who really were there in your

529
00:32:50,101 --> 00:32:52,837
career for you, who would it be and why?

530
00:32:53,604 --> 00:32:56,140
There are many for many of us.

531
00:32:56,140 --> 00:33:00,311
I think the most impactful two were

532
00:33:00,345 --> 00:33:05,049
the ones that saw that I was disabled

533
00:33:05,049 --> 00:33:10,455
before I knew I was disabled
and encouraged me to keep going.

534
00:33:11,189 --> 00:33:15,393
They knew that I was finding it hard
and said, But don't give up.

535
00:33:15,393 --> 00:33:17,862
No, we don't know what's wrong
with you, but keep going.

536
00:33:17,862 --> 00:33:19,263
That was special.

537
00:33:19,263 --> 00:33:22,834
In my undergraduate,
I was having a lot of health problems,

538
00:33:22,834 --> 00:33:25,803
and I was having problems walking
and with numbness in one leg.

539
00:33:25,837 --> 00:33:29,040
My French Horn teacher,
who was also the head of theory,

540
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:33,711
and she taught musicology, said,
I don't know what this is, but take

541
00:33:33,811 --> 00:33:37,015
the day, go get a CAT scan or whatever.

542
00:33:37,015 --> 00:33:41,652
I would be told, I worked with this lady
for four years, and every time I went in,

543
00:33:41,652 --> 00:33:44,822
I was,
Oh, this is a migraine that's just showing

544
00:33:44,856 --> 00:33:48,426
up as part of your motor problems,
even if you don't have a headache,

545
00:33:48,459 --> 00:33:52,096
or all kinds of strange things they
are saying, We don't know what this is.

546
00:33:52,096 --> 00:33:54,298
She always encouraged me to keep going.

547
00:33:54,298 --> 00:33:59,103
Then also a lady that was the head
of my department, she was my department

548
00:33:59,137 --> 00:34:03,708
chair during the PhD,
and we became good friends, 

549
00:34:03,708 --> 00:34:07,745
firstly because I answered her 
call for a library assistant

550
00:34:07,745 --> 00:34:10,281
to go get her books to the library,
because at the point, 

551
00:34:10,281 --> 00:34:12,383
she couldn't get her motorized 
wheelchair into the library.

552
00:34:12,417 --> 00:34:14,552
There were renovations going on.

553
00:34:14,852 --> 00:34:16,354
She introduced herself.

554
00:34:16,421 --> 00:34:22,260
Her name is Eleanor Stubley,
and she is also a musicologist,

555
00:34:22,260 --> 00:34:26,097
conductor, and she taught music
education courses at McGill [University].

556
00:34:26,097 --> 00:34:27,498
She was a triple threat.

557
00:34:27,498 --> 00:34:29,367
She was also a French horn player.

558
00:34:29,367 --> 00:34:32,503
She had been in a chair for very 
long time, she had a rather

559
00:34:32,537 --> 00:34:35,406
progressive form of multiple sclerosis.

560
00:34:35,406 --> 00:34:37,742
Funny!

561
00:34:37,742 --> 00:34:42,013
Dark sense of humor,
soft-spoken, and just so capable.

562
00:34:42,013 --> 00:34:46,217
She figured out I had multiple
sclerosis before I knew what it was.

563
00:34:46,217 --> 00:34:52,256
I remember once being upset in her office
after we'd become friends, and I said, 

564
00:34:52,824 --> 00:34:54,725
I don't know what to do.

565
00:34:54,725 --> 00:34:59,230
I saw a neurologist who can't diagnose me
and said, I don't meet all the criteria.

566
00:34:59,263 --> 00:35:02,533
She said, You should go to my neurologist.

567
00:35:02,533 --> 00:35:06,504
She picked up her office phone,
called her neurologist, and said,

568
00:35:06,504 --> 00:35:09,106
I have an appointment next week.
I have a student here.

569
00:35:09,106 --> 00:35:12,143
I need you to give her that appointment.

570
00:35:12,143 --> 00:35:15,813
And she passed over the phone.
Because it's hard to get a specialist

571
00:35:15,813 --> 00:35:18,483
in a Canadian healthcare system.

572
00:35:18,516 --> 00:35:24,255
I went to see this specialist,
her doctor, who diagnosed me right away.

573
00:35:24,255 --> 00:35:28,693
Within a month, I was on some
disease modification therapy.

574
00:35:28,693 --> 00:35:33,331
She's also the one who encouraged me
to take some time away

575
00:35:33,331 --> 00:35:38,169
from teaching at McGill, from studying,
to take a year of leave,

576
00:35:38,169 --> 00:35:41,973
to take a maternity leave once I got
married, to start a family,

577
00:35:41,973 --> 00:35:45,543
that I could do it,
and eventually to encourage me once we

578
00:35:45,576 --> 00:35:51,015
figured out that it was stress
of being in academia to step away.

579
00:35:51,983 --> 00:35:54,852
I wouldn't be where I am
if it wasn't for her.

580
00:35:54,852 --> 00:35:59,223
I say, I don't owe someone my life,
but I owe her my legs.

581
00:36:00,191 --> 00:36:05,062
I would also in a chair by now if it
was not for her and that diagnosis.

582
00:36:05,730 --> 00:36:08,199
It was just an incredible gift.

583
00:36:09,433 --> 00:36:15,373
Yes. People, I think, don't know, don't realize
or don't really see what is happening.

584
00:36:15,373 --> 00:36:19,777
When we are engaging ourselves
with an academic career,

585
00:36:19,777 --> 00:36:21,913
it's very stressful.

586
00:36:21,913 --> 00:36:25,449
We try to do our best with the students.

587
00:36:25,449 --> 00:36:28,085
But also,

588
00:36:28,085 --> 00:36:32,790
what happened to you is that you didn't

589
00:36:32,790 --> 00:36:36,928
have this role model before meeting her

590
00:36:36,928 --> 00:36:39,463
who was like, Everything's going to be all right.

591
00:36:39,497 --> 00:36:42,700
What's the name of your first
teacher who you mentioned?

592
00:36:43,367 --> 00:36:45,636
Her name was Kjellrun Hestekin.

593
00:36:45,636 --> 00:36:48,606
She was a Norwegian lady.
She was wonderful.

594
00:36:49,407 --> 00:36:53,210
You have people who don't know 
what's happening, but who are just 

595
00:36:53,210 --> 00:36:56,080
cheering you up and saying 
everything's going to be all right.

596
00:36:56,113 --> 00:37:02,053
But still, until you meet this person
who's like, I know what's happening.

597
00:37:02,053 --> 00:37:04,855
I went through that.

598
00:37:04,855 --> 00:37:10,628
Then you can see things differently
and saying, Okay, so I might be okay then.

599
00:37:10,928 --> 00:37:11,862
Exactly.

600
00:37:11,896 --> 00:37:14,865
That's why I'm happy to do what I do now
with RAMPD, because now when I go

601
00:37:14,899 --> 00:37:18,703
into a conference,
I meet people who are where I was,

602
00:37:18,769 --> 00:37:21,339
and I can be that person to them.

603
00:37:21,339 --> 00:37:24,609
It's just a random encounter,
but you never know how you affect

604
00:37:24,609 --> 00:37:30,314
the lives of others and how
a few kind words and then a quiet

605
00:37:30,348 --> 00:37:33,751
conversation over coffee can help 
somebody get new perspective,

606
00:37:33,851 --> 00:37:35,353
and they won't give up either.

607
00:37:35,386 --> 00:37:38,823
They'll find a way to work around,
because when you're disabled, as you know,

608
00:37:38,856 --> 00:37:44,028
we have so many compensatory mechanisms,
so many backup plans,

609
00:37:44,028 --> 00:37:47,331
because we want to get where we're going
or we just want to get

610
00:37:47,331 --> 00:37:50,134
that job done that day.

611
00:37:50,835 --> 00:37:54,472
Well, thank you so much for sharing 
these stories with us and

612
00:37:54,472 --> 00:37:57,575
your testimonies and your songs.

613
00:37:58,309 --> 00:38:01,712
We're going to share
that with our listeners.

614
00:38:01,746 --> 00:38:05,416
We're going to publish
all important dates and links

615
00:38:05,416 --> 00:38:09,353
on our website so that everybody
can have a look at your work.

616
00:38:10,354 --> 00:38:11,756
Thank you so much.

617
00:38:12,256 --> 00:38:15,826
Well, have a fantastic day and maybe
see you soon in the community.

618
00:38:16,293 --> 00:38:17,528
You too.
Hope to see you.

619
00:38:17,828 --> 00:38:19,297
Yeah.
Bye.

620
00:38:20,698 --> 00:38:25,703
[Closing theme music]