Episode 54 Robyn Rennie Transcript

[Opening theme music]

[Diane] Hello, and welcome to this episode of ArtsAbly in Conversation. My name is Diane Kolin. This series presents artists. academics and project leaders who dedicate their time and energy to a better accessibility for people with disabilities in the arts. You can find more of these conversations on our website, artsably.com, which is spelled A-R-T-S-A-B-L-Y dot com.

[Theme music]

Today, ArtsAbly is in conversation with Robyn Rennie, a visual artist living in New Brunswick in Canada. You can find the resources mentioned by Robyn Rennie during this episode on ArtsAbly's website, in the blog section.

[Excerpt Documentary AMI "Our Community"]

[Robyn] I'm Robyn Rennie, and on my lap is my miniature dachshund Murray. I'm an older female with graying hair. I wear glasses, and I'm dressed in black that has paint on it because I'm an artist. I am a fine artist because I paint. I used to be a very high realist artist. I've painted my whole life, and my paintings had a lot of detail. They had texture, but the texture was created with paint itself. And after my vision loss, I couldn't draw anymore. I don't have that depth of field. So for a while, I didn't do anything, and - But that creative impulse just doesn't go away. So I started to experiment with textures and more of an abstract approach, which was very difficult for me. But it was something that I finally had to work with and experiment with, and it was hard. And I had a lot of failures, but it's been quite a few years now, and I feel very... I'm very happy with this art. I feel like it's better than my realism. I was 44, and I was a busy working mother. I had three kids, and I was teaching. pretty much overnight, I got this headache, and within six days, I was completely blind. My optic nerve had completely shut down. It had swollen up, and it took many months for the vision to come back to what it did. And so overnight, I couldn't teach in a classroom, I couldn't drive anymore. And more importantly, I couldn't paint the way that I wanted to. And so it was devastating. This painting is one of the first paintings that I made after my vision loss. I wanted to show my doctor how I could see because it was extremely difficult. The background is black, and within the painting, within the square painting is a square window. And the window is light blue and silver and highly textured. And then all around the edges of the window are purple, interference purple and interference blue, because the light breaks apart and it smudges into the dark background. This is really how I see when I look out into a bright space. The edges are blurred. I always describe it as it blows apart. Like, edges blow apart to me. I don't get anything nice and distinct. 

[Interview]

[Diane] Welcome to this new episode of ArtsAbly in Conversation. Today, I am with Robyn Rennie, who is a visual artist living in New Brunswick, in Canada. Welcome, Robyn! 

[Robyn] Thank you, thank you for inviting me. 

[Diane] Thank you for taking the time to talk about your work. So I always ask my guests to give a little bit of context about who you are. What is your background, your story? So, how did you start... you're a painter, right? 

[Robyn] Yes. Well, yeah, I'm a visual artist with a visual impairment, and, who is currently creating accessible art. I always painted, and I had a modicum of success in my 20s. I was a high realist painter. And back in the days of the wildlife Robert Bateman kind of painting, and I painted a lot of birds. And then I went back to school, back to university. I wanted to become an elementary teacher. I was already teaching art in the schools, but I wanted to get my teaching degree. And when I was 45, I got sick. Overnight, I had this really bad headache, and within 6 days, I was completely blind. And I was very, very fortunate to get some excellent medical advice and some experimental treatment, and they were able to save some of my vision, but I was left legally blind as a result of this illness. So, overnight, I couldn't teach in a classroom, I couldn't drive a car, I had to... I couldn't paint. Because my depth of field is, yeah, my depth of field is missing, and two-dimensional images are very difficult for me to decipher. It takes me a long time. If I'm looking at a magazine, I can't figure out what I'm looking at. So, I had to reimagine how I was going to paint. I didn't paint for a long time, but that, that creative impulse just doesn't go away, and so I started to, to paint again. I couldn't do the realism that I did before, so I started to, you know, open up, and my work was a little more abstract. And I took work to a gallery, and it was completely rejected. So I was crushed, and I didn't do anything for about 5 years. But I... again, I couldn't help it. I had to, to revisit this, so I reimagined and I reinvented how I, how I wanted to convey, you know, how I... basically, how I convey how I see. Because people were asking me all the time, well, you know, how do you see, exactly? how do you see? And this first thing I've got, this was the first thing I painted was... This is a painting of the hospital window in the room that I was in. So, this is me in my room, in the black, but I'm looking, or, like, in the dark, but I'm looking at the bright, bright window, and you can see the outline of the, of the window frame, and the light breaks apart. That's how I describe it, it just explodes, and it's all... this is very visceral, it's very tactile, and... because that's... things are moving for me, it's hard to... to convey something moving when it's static, but that's sort of what I was trying to do. So I started to use iridescent and metallic and interference paints, because they change when you look at things from a different point of view. And that's how I see, you know, I can be looking right at something and not see it, but I turn my head just a little bit, and oh, there it is. So, I'm just trying to impart to the viewer, if they moved, you know, from one section to another, or look at the painting, they're going to see, they're going to get a different point of view, a different perspective. So that was the first thing that I was trying to do, and then I was trying to really use texture and... and these various mediums to create this visceral experience. And I'll give you an example of what I mean by that. I have a painting right now that's about to go on display out in Alberta. And it's called Searching for Cypress Hills 3. It has a lot of, um, varied... Intense color. And the clouds have this broken-up plastic, it's called PEEK plastic, it's a product that Triarc in Canada makes. And it's basically ground-up containers, and then they put it in a medium, and you can use that on your work, and it's very sharp, and it's very harsh. And what I was trying to impart in this painting was that I, you know, I was looking for something that I could only see in my mind's eye. I was looking for a battle site, and, of Cypress Hills, where a lot of innocent Indigenous peoples were slaughtered. And so we went looking for this place, because I really needed to see it, you know? And when we got out of the car, we never did find it, and when we got out of the car, it was so hot. And so the intense color and the sharp mediums that I was using was trying to, to impart the violence, like, the violence of the history of what I was looking for, number one, and the violence that I felt with this heat, like, I just felt assaulted by the heat. I don't like the heat. And it was really, really hot. And so, that's where I'm using these various mediums to, you know, to convey, like, my feelings, you know, and what is happening to me when I am imagining and creating a painting. So, so I started to do that, and it actually went really well, and to be perfectly honest, my artwork now is much more satisfying, I feel that I wouldn't trade my vision for anything, but I... My art is better. I mean, being able to paint realistically is a technical thing. What I'm doing now is true art. It's truly from my soul. And it's made me a better artist. Believe it or not. So, so then I... So then part two of my story. So I had my vision loss, and I had to, you know, reinvent and reimagine how I was going to do things, and that started to go really well. And then I discovered that, you know, I couldn't tell what I was looking at when I went to other shows. You know, with my daughter, we went to the AGO, and I couldn't really tell what I was looking at, you know, the two-dimensional thing and the little tags that they have are not very big, and, and then my other daughter took me to an immersive Frida Kahlo show, and, and that should have been wonderful for me, because it's, you know, one of my favorite artists, and immersive implies, you know, accessibility. And while the music was fabulous, and the experience was wonderful, still couldn't tell what I was looking at. You know, I had to go home and look on, you know, my computer with my assistive devices, and research the various paintings and that, so that I could understand what I had seen. So that really made me start to think about accessibility in terms of visual art, and how visual, or how viewers who, you know, have low vision, or are completely blind, or neurological, you know, differentials, are really left out of the art experience, and it's... and they want to have that experience. So, I've... the first thing I did was I had a show in Toronto, and I started to make some accessible things, and we... I made two tactile replicas of my painting. So I had the painting, and then a white pecta replica for touch. And so we wanted to do an audio description, so that if somebody was there who couldn't see or was completely blind, well, they were touching, they could listen to the audio description and understand, you know, what they, what the painting was about. So my son, who works for the Ministry of Health, he writes code, he wrote me an app for smartphone called Artsessible. And it was great, you know, you just pointed your phone at a QR code, and then it had a computer-generated voice describing the painting. But what I discovered was that most people, a great many people who don't have, you know, who have vision issues, and are living on disability don't have $1,000 smartphones. So they... it wasn't accessible, right? And... And plus, I didn't like the computer-generated part of it, so, so we took what we knew. This was actually right before COVID, and I had just secured a major exhibition for 2024 in Orillia, at the Orillia Museum of Art and History, which is just called OMAH. And... 4 years, trust me, it takes 4 years to put an exhibition of this complexity together. And so I wrote to the Canada Council for the Arts, and I told them what I had done, and I had, you know, statistical information about how many times people had used it, and, you know, the feedback that I was getting, and I said, you know, this is what I'm doing, this is what I want to do, and I need your support. And they were fabulous. They gave me pretty much everything I asked for. And so we decided to build units ourself, that, audio devices that were inexpensive and easy to use. I mean, there are audio devices out there, but they're, you know, $2,500. So, I needed 27 of them, and I certainly couldn't afford that. So we started to build these. My husband designed and built these devices, according to my specs, kind of thing, and what I wanted. and we came up with this product right here. Super easy to use, somebody comes up to it, there would be an indicator on the floor if you were completely blind and you use your cane. And it would... there's instructions that would tell you to push the button, put on the headset, and you listen to me describing the painting, and the tactile piece would be next to it, so, and they would know all this, there is, you know, detailed instructions, audio instructions as well as braille. And then they could explore the painting beside it while listening to me describe it. And that worked out really, really well. The... the response was so favorable and we were really, really happy. And again, we had you know, all the statistics. We were able to tell how many times it was clicked, and how many people used it, and so... OMAH then ended up keeping, yeah, they kept several of the units, and then... So I have another show coming up in another 3 years, now that I'm down in New Brunswick. This one is at the Saint John Arts Centre, St. JAC. And that's a very big, major, solo exhibition. I'm very excited about it. Again, I'm glad I have 3 years, because it will take me a lot of time, because I have to, you know, create the paintings, create the tactile replicas, do all the brailling, do all the, you know, the large print, everything, all the documentation. And a visual description. And you know what? That is harder than you'd think. And now that I'm doing my own alt text on my website, my son used to do that for me, but we're doing it now. And it's not as easy as you'd think, because of course I'm very verbose, and I want to tell all kinds of things, and I have to make sure I keep things succinct, you know, and concise. But... But, yeah, so in the meantime, I'm getting the word out about these units, because I want, I want museums and galleries to have this technology. 

[Diane] I don't want to interrupt you, but I'm gonna just describe quickly what I see right now. 

[Robyn] Okay. 

[Diane] I see that your... you have a painting that is just behind you. 

[Robyn] Yes. 

[Diane] Which you might, you might want to describe yourself, but what I see, the famous units you are talking about is a white small block with a green button that says START and headphones. So people would just explore tactilely what is on the wall, find this button, press start, put the headphones and press start, and then they would hear you describing it, right? 

[Robyn] Me describing it, yes. 

[Diane] Okay. 

[Robyn] And usually I give some insight as well. And yeah, so this indicator on the floor, they would find if they were completely blind, you know, with their cane, is going to tell them that the button is right in front of them. And so it's easy to find. This is extremely easy to use, and we've done this because, obviously, if you don't see very well, you know, you don't want anything to be hard, and there's a little, there's an arrow on the front, too. Underneath there's... a little... A volume control, sorry. And, because it resets to a sort of an in-between volume every time, so that if somebody like me was to put it on and have it really loud, when I put the headphones back on, it's going to automatically reset so that the next person doesn't get blasted. And... But you can adjust it if you need to as well. Again, very simple to use. And... Yeah, and this painting, actually, So, a lot of what I paint these days is landscape. Because I feel very connected to the land, and I know that sounds very... A lot of people kind of say that. But places where you're... The sense of places where your safety and your comfort is. And because I don't see very well, and I don't like to explore things I don't... I'm not comfortable, especially on my own. The places that I remember and the places that are around me are super important to me. And this one is actually, this is a photograph, this is a house that I grew up in. And it was a place of, you know, great safety and happiness and comfort, and so... It is called the Elms, and so these figures around the house, well, even in the picture, are elm trees before the Dutch elm disease killed everything in 1968. And then there's corn growing down in the front here, and the big billowing clouds, and yeah, I'm just trying to create that feeling of safety and comfort that my home brought me. And my paintings, I mean, because I'm always looking at my feet, I don't often see what's around me. If I do a painting landscape that's, you know, a broad landscape. I, you know, I have to stop and look, and then really experience. I mean, if I'm just walking along, I don't really know what's around me, because I have to... I've broken so many bones in my feet. We've just got this whole dead zone that I... Even though I use my cane, I'm still looking to see what's down there in front of me, in case I miss something, so... But yeah, landscape is... where, you know, is basically what I'm painting right now, a lot of, so... 

[Diane] This house is in Ontario? 

[Robyn] It's gone. Yes, it was in Markham. My great-grandfather built it, and... So that had a tremendous amount of meaning for me, and there were 5 houses on this property that he built. And so my great-grandparents lived on one side, and my grandmother lived on the other. And until I was 13, I had this experience of growing up with these elders who were just so fabulous, you know, and so loving, and... Yeah, it's, you know, it's a very special episodic memory for me, you know, to remember, living at the Elms. 

[Diane] And in order to paint this painting, you had the picture, but did you also go back there and try to explore tactilely what was around you, or not? 

[Robyn] No, the house is gone. The house was torn down in 1975. And there's an apartment building there. So, no, all memory. All memory. I spent a lot of time on that property. I spent a lot of time by myself. I knew there was... I guess, about two and a half acres, and I knew every inch of it. And, you know, climbed... not the elm trees, they were too tall, but I climbed all the trees, and I... I just spent a lot of time immersed in the actual property, you know? And so it's, yeah, it's a huge part of my identity. 

[Diane] So, before going to your upcoming exhibition, I wanted to go back to something you said about when you were yourself studying painting. Or being influenced by Robert Bateman and, and this really naturalist painting, you were saying that you were printing a lot of birds at this time, which might imply a lot of details when you're painting a bird. 

[Robyn] Absolutely. All those feathers. 

[Diane] Yeah, and from what, from that period, what did you keep in your current practices of trying to put some of what you've learned as a younger artist and apply it to what you do now in your artistry? 

[Robyn] That's a really good question. I can't even say color, because I use a lot more color now than I ever used to. Probably those interference colors, you know, even when I painted birds, because their feathers have that, you know, that iridescence to them. I used a lot of that paint. Because it... again, you know, you would look at it from a different angle and get that different, that different perspective. So, and yes, I still like my interference and iridescent color. 

[Diane] But right now, so if I look at the painting that is behind you, I'm thinking of the feather. Here is... there are leaves, there are corn, there are everything. And it seems to be, visually, what I'm seeing is that there are lots more, there are texture that you apply, right? There are layers of painting and texture. 

[Robyn] Oh, absolutely, and different mediums. This one is quite rough. It's a gel medium that dries very hard. And what else have I got in here? Oh, there's glass beads. A medium that has glass beads in it. Again, just gives you that, you know, that shimmer, and... Yes, I still like... I like shimmer. And that's... and my vision is like that, too. I have, you know, I've got a lot of blind spots. And I don't know if you remember. Yeah, you're old enough to remember this. Younger people don't always. The TV, remember the snow on TV? My vision is completely covered in that, so... So there's constant movement and little lights flashing, and so, yeah, those things, that kind of picks up that idea. 

[Diane] Okay, so let's talk about your upcoming exhibition, then. So, this one will be where and when? 

[Robyn] All right, so upcoming is... It's called Art for Social Change. And it's taking place... it starts on December the 3rd to 10th, out in Alberta, in... it's Wood Buffalo, Regional Municipality of Wood Buffalo. They're holding this show at Keyano College in Fort McMurray, Alberta. And I like it because the December the 3rd is the... is the International Day for People with Disabilities. And then December the 10th is International Day for Human Rights. So they've, you know, they've bookended it with that, which is really cool. And this show, I'm so excited about this. They've got seven multidisciplinary artists, including me, whose installations explore this theme of accessibility, So what they want... I mean, I think I'm the only visual artist. Pretty sure. There might be one other. But certainly the only one doing, you know, with the audio headsets and the tactile art. And they want to inspire their visitors. So it's less for people who don't see, it's more to inspire visitors to reflect and connect and take action to address barriers to accessibility and inclusion. And that is so important, because people, you know, fully sighted and fully able-bodied people, as much, even as they want to be more inclusive, they don't know what to do. And so, you know, to really think about what does this mean that I have to do to make somebody who can't see, you know, know what I'm doing, and, or somebody who can't move, they're in a wheelchair, and, you know, they can't get from one area to another, you know. It's so important to change that medical definition of disability into the social one, where it's about removing the barriers, not that the person is the problem, but the barriers are the problem. You know all about this. So, this show is really... That is their intent with this, and I'm, I'm very impressed. It's the first time I've ever had a show. And so it's, you know, it's... It's been a learning experience, but... I think they're doing a fabulous job. 

[Diane] And for your part, so you're gonna... What are you going to show as your art piece over there? I sent six 30 by 30 paintings and replicas and tactile, or sorry, audio devices and brailled tags, and large print tags. I sent everything out there. I shipped it out. I think the other artists and performers are going to be on site. I wasn't comfortable going to a strange city by myself. I do travel, but I need to know where I'm going and who's going to meet me, and, you know. So, yeah, so I'm just doing my part virtually, which is fine. I didn't... They don't need me there. That was one thing that we did discover that in setting everything up, it's so user-friendly, it's so well documented. There have been no issues whatsoever, and in fact, tactile, or... Tangled Arts in Toronto, they have a show that just opened last Friday, and they are using our audio devices, and they had absolutely no problem setting things up. So that was really good to know. 

[Diane] Wow, okay. Well, there was something you said that I'm intrigued about. 

[Robyn] Sure. 

[Diane] You said, yeah, I'm not used to travel in strange cities. So when you are traveling, are you... What is the organization around traveling to a city where you don't know everything about the city but you have to do an exhibition in person. How do you... what is your preparation? What do you do? 

[Robyn] I would take my husband or my daughter. I'm just not there yet. You know, I know people do and that they're much braver than me. But I'm... I think, too, because of the, you know, the number of falls that I've had, I'm... I'm just not comfortable. You know, but... when I do travel by myself, and I, you know, I know where I'm going, I often travel out to Kelowna, BC. I have family there. Air Canada. They just, they're fabulous. You know, they make sure I get from... I'm escorted from, you know, one part of the terminal to another, because I wouldn't be able to find my way. And They just do everything. They're great. And the same with VIA Rail. VIA Rail is phenomenal as well. So, yeah, you know what? That is one thing I do, is, I choose modes of transportation where I know that I'm going to have the customer service I need. 

[Diane] Yeah, that's a good thing. Everybody has different access needs, so your access need is to make sure that your... whoever accompanies you drives you from point A to point B safely and get everything that you need, so that's really good. 

[Robyn] Yeah. Gets me through the security, and, and then from there on, you know, the airline takes over, and they're always very, very accommodating, so... 

[Diane] Okay, and I wanted to know a little bit more about the... So you talked about a big exhibition that will happen in 2027? 

[Robyn] 2028. 

[Diane] 2028, can you talk about that? 

[Robyn] Yeah, it's... Okay, so it's on the ground floor, which is fabulous, because that makes it more accessible, and honestly, I need to go in. I have not begun deciding how many paintings I want. I'll probably do 30 by 30 again, because it's a format that I'm very comfortable with, and it just works really well for what I want to do. You know, anything larger is a little bit hard. Too small doesn't give me enough room. And... 

[Diane] Where is it, and when? 

[Robyn] Oh, sorry, it's in St. John, in St. John, New Brunswick. It's in November of 2028, and it's in the St. John Arts Center, which is this fabulous building, right in uptown. It's called Uptown St. John, it's right up this hill. I don't know if you've ever been to St. John, it reminds me a lot of, of San Francisco, you know, these great big hills that come down to the port. And the building is beautiful. It reminds me of the ROM in Toronto. It's, you know, it's this an old building, and the center of it has this beautiful rotunda with stained glass, and... Yeah, it's just a great building. I'm very, very excited about having a show there, so... And the same thing, you know, I will do the, the tactile replicas and the audio devices and, and introduce my art to the Maritimes. 

[Diane] Yeah, you're traveling from one part to the other, that's great. 

[Robyn] Oh, yeah, yeah, that's true. Yeah, I've actually had two shows in Alberta, and haven't made it quite to BC yet, but I'll get there. 

[Diane] Well, speaking of traveling, there is one thing that you did that was actually documented in an AMI short documentary that was made about you. It's the work you're doing with CNIB, so the one you did at Lake Joe Camp. 

[Robyn] Yes. 

[Diane] Can you talk about that workshop? 

[Robyn] Oh, it was so much fun. The kids were amazing. They, you know, they were so enthusiastic, and they were... and they taught me things, and I used them as guinea pigs in a way, because I wanted to see, with the tactile pieces, you know, I had them close their eyes and sometimes some of them didn't need to, but... and they explore the tactile pieces while I described it out loud. I walked around the room and described it to see what their reaction was to, you know, because I wanted to see what happens when somebody you know, does this on the wall with my paintings, so I had them, I had them, you know, go through this motion and then tell me, you know, how they responded to it. And then when we made our paintings ourselves, you know, and I think I talk in the documentary about this one child who basically creates tactile red. And that just blew me away. You know, kids are so capable of so many more things than we can even imagine. They really are, and she... Yeah, I loved it. I really loved it. I would like to do that again sometime. It was very, very worthwhile. 

[Diane] But, so, how did it start, and what was it about exactly? What was the workshop? So, CNIB went to knock on your door and said I would love for you to do a workshop for children with visual impairments? How did it happen? 

[Robyn] Kind of. Well, I was an ambassador for several years for them. And then I was doing, you know, I had written some articles, because I'm a writer as well, and had done some advocacy work. And I guess the woman that I was working with, I don't know how it came about, but I mentioned this show that I was having, and she didn't know the art aspect of my life, and so she... She's Sherri Helsdingen, she's in the documentary. And she said, you know, would you be interested in facilitating a workshop, you know, with children at the camp? And I was like, yeah, absolutely, because I love kids. And that's how it happened, and I, you know, I made them, I made these pallets with some of the things I was talking to you about, I think I had 6 different mediums that have various you know, textures to them. And I made these palettes up with the medium, so that they could feel what it would feel like when it was dry, because, you know, they wouldn't know that until the next day or two, and, so that they would know what the end result was. And I did everything in large print and braille so they could find their way around the palette. And then we just went to town, and they had a great time. So... and we didn't paint them... some of the children have some vision, and they certainly could have done, like, how I do, you know, like, after I've done all this tactile stuff, it's all in white and clear, and then I paint on top of it. You know, they were certainly welcome to do that. I was only there for the afternoon. But yeah, it was a success. 

[Diane] It looks like the environment itself, the Lake Joe, or whatever the lake was around, was beautiful and. It's kind of an inspiring environment in a way, like, It's kind of... by the documentary, the images, we could see it looks beautiful. 

[Robyn] It is absolutely gorgeous in Muskoka. Oh yeah. And I had never been there before, actually. So that was a new experience for me, too, but yes. And so accessible! I mean, it's completely accessible for these... and they go fishing, they swim, they go out in the canoes, they do, you know, they golf! there was golf, and I couldn't believe that. And, you know, all kinds of things that they're doing, so not just arts and crafts kind of thing. And they... yeah. You know, so that they can feel like everybody else. And then the week that I was there was Family Week, so their brothers and sisters were there with them, too, and they were able to have a family camping experience that was completely accessible. And, yeah, I can't say enough about Lake Joe, it's fabulous. 

[Diane] Thank you. I have a question about... you talked about that a little bit already in your answers, but I'm always curious about the notion of artists defending or including accessibility and inclusion practices in their artistic work. What does it mean for you to work in, in an accessibility art environment, or to be an advocate of accessibility arts in artistic practices? 

[Robyn] Well, it's totally my passion at this point. You know, like, the need is there. I experienced this firsthand. And I understand that it's really important to provide this. You know, to provide as many experiences as possible, and, you know, and include as many people as possible in art, because we all need our, you know, and it's good for our psyche, it's good for our soul, that creative impulse is sort of within us, whether we're good at it or not, you know, and we love to experience art and look at art, and even if you can't see it, you know, to be able to touch art, is very valuable. And yes, it's important to me. This has become the focus of my art career at this point. 

[Diane] In the documentary, you say something that I love: "Tactile art will be the future of arts." 

[Robyn] Oh, I hope so. I'm working hard. (Laughs.) I'm working hard to get it out there, and actually, there has been one artist so far who has bought some of these units to use for his own shows, which is great. I don't... he doesn't have tactile work as well, but at least he has the audio description, which is really important. And, I mean, honestly, I think that galleries and museums should all be using this. I mean, it would apply to any number of exhibits, you know? And there is some, for sure. But not enough. And I'll give you an example. I went to, to a conference at the Textile Museum in Toronto. And there wasn't one single thing that you could touch. And it's like, all this tactile textile, and there's nothing, there was nothing available that you could put your hands on. And I thought that that was a real lost opportunity, you know? 

[Diane] Especially since you can try to put clothes... Like you are doing a duplication of one of your artworks so that people can touch them. With of piece of fabric it's even easier in a way to just put a little bit of the fabric just for people to feel it. 

[Robyn] Yeah, but there again, people just don't think about this, you know, and I've had experience, you know... not collaborating, that's not the right word, but, you know, in speaking with some people that were hired as art directors for galleries, you know, had received money, hired as not just an art director, but an accessibility expert, and... Didn't know what to do. So... and so, you know, I feel like that's kind of partly my job, in my own disability is to... in my lived experience, is to tell people, well, this is what I need, right? So, you know what it's like. I mean, there's no one-size-fits-all for disability, and, and for accessibility, and, you know, everybody's need is a little bit different. But if you're not living that experience, it's hard to even imagine what someone needs, so we have to speak up, I guess. 

[Diane] Yeah, definitely! I mean, that's what I love with these interviews is that we always, there is always something to learn and always something to, to teach each other, actually, and to think of. 

[Robyn] Yes. 

[Diane] in a better accessibility. And plus, there is an evolution with... Now, today, we have some possibilities that we didn't have a few years ago. So, yeah, it's an important thing to just stop and say: How could I make it better? 

[Robyn] Right. Oh, the technology, especially for visual disability, is amazing. Now, not necessarily affordable at this point. Hopefully that will improve. But it's incredible, you know. I often think about Helen Keller and how excited she was about Braille. (Laughs.) And thinking, oh my gosh, can you just imagine what she would have thought about all the technology we have now, you know? 

[Diane] So if someone wanted to contact you for more information about these devices that you're using for visual description, how would you do that? We would go to your website? 

[Robyn] On my website, and there is actually a link for, for galleries, gallery-specific link for that information, it's all very documented. And, yeah, you said you would put that website up, so that's good. 

[Diane] I will. 

[Robyn] Yes, and there's information, there's also information about the show in Wood Buffalo region right now, and there's news about, you know, the upcoming show. I keep... And there's pictures from the old show, and I'm, I'm catching up on all my alt text, so... That's a full-time job! 

[Diane] Yeah, so, we will have a link to that on ArtsAbly's website when the podcast will be, the episode will be released. 

[Robyn] Okay, good. I'm just looking to see if there was anything else I wanted to tell you there. Oh, I know what I wanted to say. I'd mentioned about Frida Kahlo before, and, you know, how much she inspires me, and I think a lot of it is because, like, not just only that she, you know, that she's a feminist, which is hugely important to me, and but her pain, you know, and that she suffered, and... I have a lot of pain. I have scoliosis and spinal stenosis, and so I live with chronic pain, and I think about her all the time, you know, laying in bed, painting. And because... and it was important because, you know, she painted to say that she was here, that she... this... she was here, and this is what she's feeling, and that her existence mattered. And that, to me, is, is so important, because I think a lot of times, people with disabilities get dismissed. You know, and, you know, that... That's not right. Like... So yes, her, the fact that she just kept painting and painting and painting and, and letting everybody know that she existed was super, is super important to me. It inspires me. 

[Diane] Okay, wow, so it's great, I really wish I could have right now the possibility of going to any of your exhibitions, to just feel the tactile! (Laughs) 

[Robyn] What, you're not gonna fly out to Fort McMurray? (Laughs.) 

[Diane] I'm not sure I will do that! (Laughs.) 

[Robyn] Oh, that's okay. Yeah, it's a little cold in December in Fort McMurray, too. 

[Diane] Okay, well, thank you so much for this interview. It was really... I learned a lot, and it made me think of, you know, when I am visiting exhibitions, what is here or not? If there are some Braille descriptions. If there are some ways to lead people to specific parts of the room, such as, with a white cane, to be able to follow the instructions to go to the, to the device. And, yeah, it's really, really interesting. Thank you for everything you're doing on that. 

[Robyn] Oh, I'm happy to do it. This is my purpose. 

[Diane] Very good. Well, thank you so much, and yeah, maybe... 

[Robyn] Oh, thank you! 

[Diane] Maybe an exhibition in Ontario next time, and I will go, for sure. 

[Robyn] I will let you know for sure. (Laughs.) Okay, thank you. 

[Diane] Thank you, have a great day. 

[Robyn] You too, thanks. Bye-bye. 

[Diane] Bye.

[Closing theme music]