Episode 56 Winnie Luk Transcript

[Introduction]

[Opening theme music] 

[Diane] Hello and welcome to this episode of ArtsAbly in conversation. My name is Diane Kolin. This series presents artists, academics and project leaders who dedicate their time and energy to a better accessibility for people with disabilities in the arts. You can find more of these conversations on our website, artsably.com, which is spelled a-r-t-s-a-b-l-y-dot-com. 

[Theme music] 

[Diane] Today, ArtsAbly is in conversation with Winnie Luk, the Executive Director of the Disability Screen Office. You can find the resources mentioned by Winnie Luk during this episode on ArtsAbly’s website, in the blog section. 

[Excerpt of First Frame S1 Ep 10: Why Does Representation Matter?]

[Winnie] Attitudes and ableism. That's what I see as a primary barrier right now with working with the disability community. You know, sometimes I describe our work as we are almost starting from below ground zero in the sense of even identifying and divulging that you have a disability. That is a challenge right now. So not even divulging, but even identifying. So many folks have said to me in meetings, I'm blind in one eye, but I'm not disabled. I cannot hear in one ear, but I'm not disabled. I have this chronic pain, but I'm not disabled. So one's own understanding of what disability means and actually identifying with it, that in itself, right now, we're trying to get to that place. We represent 27% of the Canadian population, which actually increased from the last census. But I know for a fact that that number is vastly undercounted, because most people are not checking that box, because there's also a misconception that if you're checking that box, you're taking something away from someone else. And this is just data collection, and it's not for a program. So there's so many barriers right now to get to that even ground zero of folks feeling safe and good and divulging their disability, understanding their disability. Someone told me, a colleague had told me that their friend right now has said to them, I actually feel safer coming out as queer than coming out as disabled in our screen industry right now. So think about what that actually means and where we are right now. And in the sense of disability, this is something that everyone will be... Everyone will become disabled at one point in their lives. So it's someone that at one point everyone will experience, and the fact that it's still so stigmatized and there's still so much ableism, and negative attitudes around this, that in itself we need to break down because again, at one point in your life, you are going to experience some type of disability. That's what we do essentially at the DSO is that we do share our story, we share our journeys, making sure that people feel that they can ask, what are your access needs? How do you communicate? What do you need to thrive in your role? 

[Interview]

[Diane] Welcome to this new episode of ArtsAbly in Conversation. Today we are with Winnie Luk, who is the Executive Director of the Disability Screen Office, a national disability-led Canadian not-for-profit organization dedicated to fostering inclusion in the screen industry. Thank you for being here. 

[Winnie] Thanks, Diane, thanks for having me. My name's Winnie Luk, I'm the inaugural Executive Director of the Disability Screen Office. My visual description is I am a Chinese woman with short black hair, just wearing a black top today. I have some art on the wall in the background, and a plant as well, a green plant in the background. And yeah, thank you for having me! 

[Diane] Thank you, it's, you've been really, really busy with all your projects and it's a pleasure to have you here. The DSO is doing a fantastic job in the community and everybody is really appreciative of everything you're doing, so thank you, first of all. 

[Winnie] Oh. Pleasure. 

[Diane] And I always start this interview by asking a little bit about you, about my guest. So who are you? Where do you come from? And what made you starting what you're doing right now, which is the screen industry? 

[Winnie] Okay, wonderful, thank you. You know, where I come from, I actually was born in Hong Kong, I immigrated with my family to Canada when I was a very young person, And my career started when I was very, very young. I had to start working at a very young age, and I attended Parks and Recreation programs as a young person, grew up in those programs, and then started working with North York Parks and Recreation, probably now more known as Toronto Parks and Recreation versus North York, the city amalgamated. And my accessibility journey actually started with Parks and Recreation, all the programming during that time already had accessibility programming intertwined into all of the sports and activities and the arts, etc. And my last position with the city of Toronto was actually leading accessibility programming for Parks and Recreation. At that time, I was also offered another position, and I was also coming out as that time as queer, and the other position that I was offered was working for Inside Out, which is the presenter of the Toronto and Ottawa LGBT2S Film Festival. And I had to really make a hard decision, because I loved working for the city, I loved doing what I was doing, and I had been doing that for at least 8 years at that time. But I was also coming out, I've always had a passion for film and TV, so, Inside Out was really calling to me, and in the end, I ended up resigning at the City of Toronto, and going to Inside Out, and never looked back. I was there for 16 years. And for my last about 9 years, I was the Director of Operations and Events. And being at an organization that I just felt so strongly and passionately about, and I loved working at Inside Out, I knew wherever I was gonna go next, I would also have to be as passionate, and the values and mission would have to really align with me as well. And at that time, an organization called Rainbow Railroad was just starting up. It was a fully volunteer-run organization, And at the time, I joined, it was just starting to become an organization that had paid staff, so I was the second staff brought on as the managing director, working closely with the executive director, to grow the organization. And Rainbow Railroad is a non-profit charity working globally, to help persecuted LGBTQI individuals escape violence and persecution from around the world. So it was intense. It was very, very intense. We grew the organization very quickly. We were working in life and death situations, working with mostly asylum seekers from around the world. And I was there for 4 years. I'm gonna be honest, I burnt out a bit. I had resigned. It was, one, because we were growing the organization so quickly, the need was intense around the world. Crisis situations were happening all over. You know, at any given time, 75 to 80 countries that criminalized same-sex intimacies, and any time between 5 to 10 countries also punished with the death penalty. And so that work was quite intense, and even though I've had experienced mobility disabilities throughout my whole life, during this time at Rainbow Railroad, I suffered two years of sciatica as well, and I was essentially horizontal for most of that time, but never during that time did I ever even consider taking disability leave, taking any time off, because of the important and really urgent life and death work that we were doing. It was only after that that I was being interviewed about my career and my life, that someone had… was listening to the story and my experience and said to me, you know, why didn't anyone tell you to go home? And it was just only in that moment, I was like, oh, my own health, right? It was my responsibility to take care of the health of my staff team, and again, really taking care of our team, our programs, the people that we were helping, and never did I really kind of turn that focus on myself and prioritize my own health. And at that time, I really made myself a promise and set some boundaries. For whatever organization I was going to next, I always have these boundaries for myself. I did some consulting in between that, and then I saw the posting for the Disability Screen Office. And it was a brand new organization, working in, as you have described, the mission and mandate that we have within the screen industry, and I was thinking, oh my gosh, this is literally the culmination of my last 30-plus years of my career. And because of my very recent personal experience, and the things I wanted for myself in my next role, I'm like, this could be it. I applied, and luckily I was offered the position, and I started in June of 2023, and so now I am the inaugural Executive Director of the Disability Screen Office. And so I found my journey very faithful in where I landed incredibly faithful, bringing together, again, all my past experience and where, in my career and personal journey with my health, this situates so perfectly within this, within this organization. 

[Diane] Wow, a great journey! [Laughs.] So what is exactly the Disability Screen Office? Because you propose multiple programs and you are present in all over the country with projects, so can you describe a little bit what you're doing? 

[Winnie] Yes, so we are a national organization, and our mission is to develop opportunities for disabled creatives and advocate for a more accessible Canadian screen industry, and we do this through our partnerships and programs and advocacy. We really have four main focus areas. So, number one being building, building relationships with and foster connections among disabled creatives, working and aspiring to work in… within the screen industry. We influence those working in every stage of content production and to remove barriers and create opportunities for disabled creatives. We advocate for policies that support disabled creatives within the screen sector and ensuring the long-term success of the DSO, the Disability Screening Office, for disabled creatives. And we are very lucky that, in the sense that in a very short period of time, we were incubated by AMI, Accessible Media Inc., in early 2022. They went out into the industry, went out in the community, and really consulted both on what was needed. AMI, if you do not know, is the broadcasters that create and develop disability programming, or programming for, with disabled creatives, representing disability for mass audiences, and it was them who saw the gap, the need, for the Disability Screen Office, so after the consultations with the industry with the disability community, they came up with this idea, incubated the idea, and the DSO became autonomous in the fall, September of 2022. There was an interim executive director that had come in, Andrew Morris, who helped recruit an incredible board of directors, and then in turn, the board of directors recruited me, and I started in June of 2023. And I'm going to be honest, I essentially kind of hit the ground running, and we haven't stopped, even though my first day within my first few hours, I was sitting in a workshop already for… with CBC. CBC and CMPA was the one-stop shop panel, and I was lucky enough on my first date to meet incredible colleagues such as, you know, Kadon from BIPOC Film and TV, there was Kristy Assu from the Indigenous Screen Office, the workshop also included Joan from the Black Screen Office, and Joy, at the time, was working for the NSI. So, having that first day to be in a workshop with these amazing you know, leaders within the sector doing great work for their various communities, and then literally one week later, I flew to the Banff World Media Festival and got to meet all these great people in person, amongst other industry folks, and creatives from our community as well. I wouldn't have started my first week any other way at the Display Screen Office. It really set me on this, right? Like, the perfect setting and right foot of meeting folks virtually, but then in person, and really being able to share the story of the Disability Screen Office, what we are intending to do, and the partnerships and collaborations that we really wanted to generate. So, that first week, I really did solidify a lot of relationships and collaborations that have moved throughout the almost 3 years now that I've been at the Disability Screen Office. 

[Diane] How many projects do you have like the main... Like you have the Industry Resource Hub. 

[Winnie] Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

[Diane] Which is really incredible because it shows people that the field is really active. 

[Winnie] Yes, yes. 

[Diane] This preconceived idea of 'disabled folks don't do anything' or you know. 

[Winnie] I know! 

[Diane] So, like, it completely erases it. 

[Winnie] Yeah, quite the opposite, quite the opposite I mean, I would say within the last, you know, almost 3 years, just meeting with folks across the country, meeting with disabled creatives, meeting with industry leaders and other industry organizations, really across all levels. So we work nationally, so coast to coast to coast in every region. But we also work with every level of the industry, the screen. So the screen industry is film and TV, so we work with, you know, the CRTC, we work with Canadian Heritage, we work with broadcasters and funders, we work with the unions, associations, and guilds and labor organizations. And it is really, truly a partnership, and part of our success is that folks really rallied around us, and want to invest in our program. So I'll give you a little bit of a high-level summary of some of the programs that we're working on. Absolutely, the Hub is one of the industry resource hub, just launched in December of 2025. This is phase one, and it's a centralized database of accommodation service providers, so whether it's ASL or LSQ interpretation, or, you know, companies who do descriptive video, or captioning, CART. Or, we have transparency and information on venues and their accessibility features. I describe it that way because there is a misconception, especially when folks say, you know, my venue is accessible. We do the digging, right? We do the digging, and we're very clear on what features are accessible. Because most venues are not fully 100% accessible, and there, you know, people will say that, and one of the biggest missteps is someone will say their, you know, even their washrooms are accessible, but it's missing an automated button, right? Because some people think, just because the dimensions are there, then that is fully accessible, and that is not the case, so it's really, really important just to really communicate to the public what your actual assessment features are, so folks can then plan, come to your website, know what you have offered and can plan their attendance or events, or what have you events, or what have you at your venue. We also have reports, toolkits, resources from Canada that exist, and or from around the world. Canada, in particular the screened industry, we're behind. You know, Australia, the US, and the UK, in this work, they have more programs, they have more funding, they have more research and data collected. So anything that is out there currently, we've done… we put in a lot of time and effort and research to collect all this information onto our database. And so now you can go to our website and to our industry resource hub, and there's a very easy-to-use filtered system of what you want to look for, whether it's you want to look for the accessibility feature, or you can look, be a region or a language, French or English, etc. And we want to make sure that it was easy to use, because anything that was out there currently, we found it was just long lists. Cumbersome long lists that you would have to scroll over and over, and you don't get to really target the information that you're looking for. We're also working now, fundraising for Phase 2 of the Industry Resource Hub, and the Phase 2 is a database of disabled creatives. What we are finding is that, you know, the disability community, one, they want to find each other. They want to engage, build community, partner on projects, and just find one another, but something else that we're finding as well is that one of our most popular questions and requests are, do you know of disabled actors, editors, directors, producers, etc., because the industry really want to engage our community and work with our community. So that is incredible. And we do want to build a place where folks can find each other and find our community. It's so important. Something that will set this database aside is that we will have a very comprehensive privacy. You can manage your own account, but it is up to you, as the person owning your own account, if you want to share you know, information about your disability. So that, to us, is incredibly important, that you have full control, and there is privacy and confidentiality within our database. So it's a bit more comprehensive than you'd probably find in other databases. So that's our Industry Resource Hub. Another project, probably our largest project, is called Mapping Representation, and it is a research project that spans over 2 years and 3 years with two different deliverables. So, the first pro… or the first phase of that project is over 2 years, and we had distributed the first-ever survey on disability within the screen sector. So, trying to figure out, essentially, data, right, about people who currently work in the industry, wanting to get into the industry, what barriers they face, what various and different disabilities folks identify with having, and then we also conducted a focus groups as well for this particular research project, and we did literary and just researched at large for what is currently out there, and this is all going to culminate into a best practices guide on how the Canadian screen industry can work with our community, and that will be launched this summer, the Best Practices Guide. And the third, or the second phase of this particular project that spans 3 years, is a report that we are going to be writing with the information that we've gathered from our surveys, focus groups, and research, and it will culminate into a report that we'll be submitting to Accessibility Standards Canada. So they are our partner on this particular report project. So that's our large project. I talked about the Resource Hub. Another program that we are also going to be delivering on later this fall is our Screen Festival Accessibility Program. And this kind of came out in my experience, over my first year traveling coast to coast to coast, attending all the various events and conferences and festivals, and at the same time meeting with disabled creatives, the very folks that I were meeting were not attending the same festivals and events and conferences I was attending, because it was just not accessible to them. And so, very quickly, out of essentially frustration, I was like, we need to do something about this. I obviously also have a background in festival production, working at Inside Out for 16 years. I also consulted on accessibility as well for film festivals. And so… Right away, I thought, okay, what I'm gonna do is at least pick the top 5 festivals across the country, I hold them to, you know, more accountability and standards of accessibility, and the fact that none… like, at that time, they didn't seem to have started any of this work. I was thinking, I'll pick the top 5, and I'll partner with them on a 3-year program. And for me, it was really important that it was multi-year, because one year is not going to be enough, and I'm thinking, three years, let's get them started on the work and the journey, and create an accessibility plan. When I was talking to one of our lead funders, Telefilm, about this program, they became incredibly interested in it. They were like, this is a great idea, we want to help and support, so they came in, and we ended up zooming out. And so, the festivals that kind of jumped on to the first iteration of the program, now we're using them as case studies for a… for this program, which now we're going to gather all this information and create guidelines for festivals and conferences all across the country to follow. So this will be published in September, and then we also submitted a framework to Telefilm. So it's a framework on how funders and what funders should be doing, looking at projects and applications coming into them, ensuring that they are also prioritizing accessibility. I've also had, first, tried to pick the top 5 festivals, largest in that time, only because, to be perfectly honest, medium-sized hustles and smaller festivals, they themselves have started this work. They themselves have started prioritizing accessibility. It was really the larger festivals that weren't doing as much, which really goes to show, it's not about budget, per se, right? It's really about prioritization, because these smaller festivals absolutely have smaller capacity, smaller operations, smaller budgets, but yet they were doing the work, and they were setting accessibility plans, and having panels, hosting panels, etc. But really, kudos to the festivals that signed a reno right away, so the Banff World Media Festival, Vancouver International, in our second year, we were able to extend the program and work with Real Asian and Reelworld here in Toronto as well, and less informally, we also worked with the Toronto International, and we worked with Prime Time as well, put on by the CMPA in Ottawa, to, again, inform the guidelines, and they've been doing great work. In just two years' time, we saw the difference between the first year and the second year, and it's been noticed. So really proud of that program and our partners in that program. A companion program to the Screen Festival Accessibility Program is our Industry Events Access Program. And essentially, this is a delegation program. So for these various festivals, and others, as well, across the country, we're bringing delegation of disabled creatives, and depending on the kind of mission and mandate of those particular festivals or conferences or events, that's how we recruit and select our delegations. And so, our most recent delegation went to Prime Time. We had a group of five disabled creatives. They had an incredible time, and that is partly supported by CMPA as well, also partly supported by... This particular one is Ontario Creates and Manitoba, so we're working with the various regions, actually, various provinces, to bring in delegates from across the country within the regions to be able to have these opportunities to these amazing conferences. And our next delegation coming up is at the Banff World Media Festival. We'll be bringing two delegates, one from Ontario, one from Manitoba, to Banff in June. So we're still continuing to work on that and expand on that, working with the various industry partners on that, and at one point, even though right now the priority is national, at one point we're going to start to plant the seeds on international as well. Another program that we're working on is our Accessibility and Disability e-learning series. That's also coming out in a few months. And it was… what we saw was a need and understanding that there's actually legislation. We did our first intervention at the CRTC, I think it was, like, July of 2023, and we had talked about the Accessible Canada Act, And after that presentation, and submitting our letter, many folks actually came up to us and said, oh, we had no idea! So can you imagine, right? The federal legislation, Accessible Canada Act, it was enacted in 2019 with a deadline of 2040, almost every province, several provinces across the country also have their own legislation, but again, a lot of folks in our industry didn't understand this. So, we decided we're going to create an e-learning series. It's a series of short… four short videos that will train folks and educate folks on legislation at the federal level, and then we're going to create some data and information sheets on provincial legislation as well. Another program that we're working on is a production accessibility role. We are now calling it a production accessibility lead role with the acronym, called PAL. So essentially, it is a whole new managerial role that we want to introduce into the industry ecosystem, You might have heard of it currently as Production Accessibility Coordinator or Consultant, and it's actually quite popular in the States and in the UK. We have a handful of working accessibility coordinators here in Canada as well. But what we've seen with the coordinators and consultants is that they're brought into the projects too late. So by the time they're brought in, budgets are set, locations are set, casting, hiring, all of that's already done. So, whatever the coordinator or consultant is suggesting, people can take it or leave it. And so what we want to do with this particular role is elevate it, so they would have more decision-making power, more influence on budgets, locations, scheduling, etc., be that central figure to train the team, the whole team, be that confident for folks to divulge and ask for their access needs and accommodation needs, and really be that central figure to lead this work, because what we also saw, and what we've also heard from disabled creatives, is that, you know, if it's a disabled writer, for example, they then become the consultant, right? It's this, like, emotional labor that defaults on them, and free labor at that, because they're the writer, they're hired to be the writer, but they might then now, oh, is this authentic representation? Or what about, you know, we have… our set. Is this accessible enough? And so all of a sudden, all this information, or all this education lands on the disabled creatives, and all they want to do is write, or direct, or edit, or do exactly what they were actually hired to do. So, hearing that from our community, and also understanding that from our industry, that's what we also wanted to achieve with this particular role, was that we wanted a role that was paid well and fairly, and to do this work, to take that pressure off of other disabled creators working on projects. And we're in phase one right now. So we're creating the job description, we're developing the curriculum, and then we're going to train a first cohort. And the first cohort are going to be made up of disabled... disabled people working within accessibility, and if they have experience within the industry, that's great as well. And we want to elevate these people to that managerial role, and obviously give the training more on how to be, you know. Because the particular responsibilities will span over a producer, a PM, or an AD, so obviously, train them in those various levels of responsibility. And the first pilot cohort, we're going to select one individual in each region, coast to coast to coast, and within this phase, we're also working with the… even though this particular position will not start off being unionized, It was important to us to work with unions, guilds and associations and the various organizations, whether they're broadcasters or funders, to really inform this role, making sure that it does fit into the current ecosystem. And also, we're working in consulting with Indivisible, which is an American company that really pioneered the production accessibility coordinator role, really wanting to give credit and respect, you know, to work that has, again, come before the DSO was ever even, you know, started. It's really important to us to engage folks that have been working in this space that has a history of working in the space and have done. We don't want to reinvent the wheel. We really want to engage and collaborate with folks who've been doing this work. So that was important to us to also engage this organization who had… who really pioneered the coordinator role to inform our curriculum, inform our job description, and engage, again, the industry and the community. And then the phase two is placing a first cohort onto productions across the country. And it's been really well received. We already have people asking us, they want to be part of that first cohort, and we already have production companies also coming to us, wanting to be that first placement, so… something that's been really well received within the industry, and folks are excited about. Let's see, I mean, I've already said a lot within our programs. Those are the ones that we are self-producing, but we also have countless industry and community partnerships across the country and across the sector as well. Just very quickly, AccessCBC is one that we've been doing with CBC in its third year. And then we also have the very first Disabled Producers Lab, there we're working with the National Screen Institute, as well, that went really, really well. And the National Screen Institute is also a partner with us on the Production Accessibility Lead Role, so really, really happy to continue working with the NSI on our various programs. We really respect their training and their programs, that they have delivered in the past, so really happy to be working with them in this capacity. 

[Diane] One of the things that you mentioned and that I can testify the importance of that, I was part of one of the focus groups and we were very happy to be in this focus group together, discussing whatever the topic was, but also realizing how important it is to put us together in the room and ask us, what do you need? What is your... where are you right now in your work environment, where are you in your tasks? Where are you in your… how do you manage, how do you travel in a journey with a disability in your work? and in the arts and that was amazing and the discussion we had during these groups, this focus group, were towards, oh, we should really get together and do that again. So that's really awesome. That's really good. 

[Winnie] Thank you for taking part! 

[Diane] Yeah, yeah, it was really, it's important. And by taking part, it's like, okay, let's support these projects because it's so important. 

[Winnie] Essentially, that's at the core of our work, is to consult our community, right? And, you know, nothing about us without us. That is really the core of how we do our work. We can't do this ourselves, right? It was just me and an amazing board of directors for our first year, and now we've grown our team, but right now it's still, you know, four full-time staff, a great board of directors, lots of community members, and incredible collaborators and partners across the country and the sector And we are only able to do this work with our community, right? With our industry partners. We couldn't do this alone, because we are still relatively new in a startup, so it's so important to us to go out into the community and hear from y'all what you need, what barriers you face, and also the good things, right? Like, the… it's not just about the barriers, but also any of the positive experiences. So yeah, very important to us to engage and to consult our community and industry aid and partners. 

[Diane] It's a good segue to my next question. So, what does it mean for you? After working with the DSO for some time, but also working with members of communities, diverse communities across the country? 

[Winnie] Ah, perfect. 

[Diane] So, what does it mean for you or what... After working with DSO for some time but also working with members of communities, diverse communities across the country, what does it mean for you to work in a disability culture, in the arts? What does it trigger? How important is it? 

[Winnie] Right now, I mean, to be perfectly honest, it means everything, right? It's kind of… Because I have been working with other equity-deserving groups and communities my whole life, essentially. It is the intersectionality, right? You cannot ignore myself in my, you know, in… I don't know if my bio, actually… but I'm a, you know, queer Chinese woman with a disability. I talked about my various mobility disabilities, but I also am ADHD as well. And for me, the culmination, like I had mentioned, you know, my journey throughout my career, the culmination of my last 30-plus years of lived experience, my career, has really culminated to this moment, and even having worked in 20 years in 2SLGBT advocacy, there's so many parallels. I see so many parallels within that and what I am doing now, and for example, even coming out as queer and divulging your disability. Right now, we see a huge barrier of folks just, one, not even necessarily identifying with having a disability, because they're… they don't understand the definition of disability. So I've had many folks say to me, you know, I'm blind in one eye, but I'm not disabled. I cannot hear in one ear, but I'm not disabled. I actually experience all this chronic pain, which - that's also my experience, I have chronic pain - but I do… I'm not disabled. And so even the understanding of getting to that level of what disability includes and identifying, those people are not checking that box, right? When the census comes around, or when conference or festival registration comes around. So that means we're not being accurately counted. When you think of folks who are being… who are just newly diagnosed right now of being neurodivergent, or even understanding what that term means, because that's a relatively new term, the trend we're seeing right now are children are being diagnosed, and it's the parents that are like, oh wait, I have these exact same characteristics. I've been dealing with this my whole life. And literally, if I've had conversations where folks are coming to that realization right in front of me. I've had many, many very emotional conversations with folks across the country, where they're only realizing now that they have either been masking or ignoring or not understanding the definition, so didn't include themselves. And we represent, currently, 27% of the population, but can you imagine if every single person actually who, one, learns and understands their identity as being disabled, and have the confidence and willingness to actually default to check that box, because also, aging parents, our aging parents are not checking that box either, right? Disability. Everyone, at one point in their lives will become disabled. And even that phrase, many of us know this, right? It's very obvious to us, But as I say this in public during panels and presentations, so many people come up to me after, and say, I never even thought about that, right? Because it's just not talked about as much. And how quickly, right? Something can change. My partner also became disabled when she got into a car accident, and it happened instantaneously, and, you know, suddenly, very, very suddenly. She was a ballerina. She danced for the National Ballet, so that cost her her career. So it happened in an instant moment, by accident. But people do not think about this, and these things happen within our industry all the time. When I talked earlier about prevention, our industry creates disability, right? And things can happen in a moment. I met someone out east recently in the fall when I attended the St. John's International Women's Film Festival, and he was… He became a paraplegic instantly from falling from a very high level. He had a very positive and lucky story in the sense that his community, the project that he was working on, rally to support him. And just talking to him and hearing his story, and how positive he actually was, from a very tragic story, was incredible, but he… That is not the common story that I hear. A lot of folks have also told me about where they had an accident on set, and then they were forced to sign a contract right away, where the pole production was just going to, you know, not take any accountability on the incident. So you can hear all the various, but it is something that also resonates with people, is that when we talk about this prevention. Mental health. You know, there's a lot of mental health issues within our industry, whether it's anxiety or depression. There's a lot of toxic work environments. These long days, 14 hours, 18-hour set days, they're not sustainable. They're not healthy, they're not good for us. And so the many stories I've heard of people driving home, falling… falling asleep at the wheel. Many car accidents, and even some fatalities. These are really, you know, we can prevent this. I came from working in human rights, life and death situations where, you know, the urgency was real, right? We're talking about thousands and thousands upon thousands of requests for help, and each story, like, it's… it's wild what folks are experiencing around the world right now. So now, coming into this industry, and working in film and TV and entertainment, it is not life and death. We can change the urgency around. And it's really only a few gatekeepers that want to kind of… make you think, right, for their own profit, that everything should be done within a day to save money, or in this way, unsafe way, to save money. It's a lot of the times just to save money. And what we want to do, part of our work, is to really change that lens and make it more people-focused, human, and health-focused. more sustainable. This is not a sustainable sector that we're working in. And more people are speaking up about it, whether it's the disability community, or parents, right? People who are caregivers, to aging parents, to children, it's just not sustainable for so many people's lifestyles. And so when I… when you asked me about, in the sense of what's important, this is such at the core of what we're working and the intersectionality, and the work that we're doing is not just going to benefit the disability community. It's going to benefit everyone. And when I talk about the parallels about coming out and divulging, I actually... You know, a colleague of mine had shared with me a story where their friend shared with them that they feel more comfortable coming out as queer versus coming out as disabled. Right, so for me, in the sense of the progress I've seen within the sector, I do see disability right now as almost this, like, final frontier of work that intersects with every other community, and everyone will become disabled at one point in their lives. And the fact that is one of the very last topics in the ED, you know, EDI, DEI, kind of umbrella, one of the first things we did, or one of the first things I encouraged in my first year was, you have to include that A. It's not just EDI, it's EDIA, or DEIA, or I even like to call it 'idea,' IDEA. Always include that A, because without it, even within circles and dialogues, a DEI, people are not talking about accessibility or disability representation. So right now, I do encourage, if in your strategic plans, in any of your equity committees, or plans, or work, or projects, you have to include that A. You have to name it, you have to label it, you have to say it out loud. Because without that aim, people very often are forgetting about our community and forgetting about accessibility, and it is so core. Right now, I feel the center of our work, and if we make things more accessible, we have good disability representation, it will just change the structure and dynamic of our industry at large. And also, legislation. It is legislated, right? So it's, on one side, great thing to do, it makes for a better industry, more inclusive industry, more representative industry. But on the other side, it's also legislated. So, change is coming. And the great thing about, you know, where we sit with the DSO and the industry is that I think that people were just really waiting for us. We're right now currently the only organization doing this type of work, but like I said, we're doing it with so many organizations and so many partners right now. Because… And why we're so busy, and why we've grown so quickly is because the need, the desire, the… the gap, people recognized that what was there, and I think they were just waiting for a trusted organization to ask all the questions. Right? I think there was a lot of intimidation or taboo, because some of my very first meetings, people did ask me, can I even say the word disability? Can I say disabled? Right? So, the very most basic information or line, and for me, it's like, yes, ask us all these questions. We'll never make you feel bad, right? Like, or embarrassed to ask these questions. We're going to meet you at where you are in your accessibility journey. Because that's where… that's… how else are we gonna start, right? So… and… A lot of the partners that we partnered with in our first year, you know, we realized, actually, they were doing more than what we knew. They just weren't telling people. And part of the work is really being proactive, and really building the relationships and outreaching and marketing the accessibility plans and features and activities that you're doing, because if you're not actually reaching the community, and letting them know what you're doing, one of the biggest risks to our work is that, you know, some folks will start this work, and then they're like, oh, but no one requested ASL, or no one was using the CART, right? Or all of those accessibility seats were empty. And, well, but did you take the time to actually reach out to our community and let them know that your event or your project is now accessible to them? Because they're not coming to your website and refreshing and clicking on your website to figure out if it's open or accessible to them, right? So part of this work is really also about reaching out, building these relationships, building the trust back up with our community, and doing that extra work. Some disability advocates, activists will say, if you build it, they will come. I don't actually necessarily agree with that. It's like, you have to build it, plus outreach plus, right? Let people know, communicate. So it's a little bit more work than just doing it. You have to actually also then take the time to build the relationship and trust back. 

[Diane] Yeah, and you were also talking about venues, it's... You know, I'm working in the music industry, mostly, and in the music industry, venues are not accessible to performers with disabilities. They're accessible to audience and then they mark themselves as accessible, and suddenly you come as an artist, and you come to perform and you cannot even access the stage. And so there is a big amount of communication that needs to happen within the venue itself, within the industry, with the venues, with the... with the direction people and with the people who are building the laws so that they can make it respect by these venues. And we have that all the time. And so it's so, it's so important. As you say, also, as a… when these venues are putting the amount of effort and accessibility and build their accesses to the performers and the audience, then they need to say, they need to tell, hey, by the way, we got this big grant, and we are now fully accessible, please, make your other colleagues aware of this information because now you can come and perform here. 

[Winnie] Exactly. 

[Diane] and so that's, yeah, that's, that joins what you're saying. 

[Winnie] What's happening is most folks are kind of reacting, right? They're reacting to complaints or to feedback versus being proactive in making sure that whether it's the show, whether it's the presentation, the event, the program, that is accessible from the beginning, you have to think about this lens from the very beginning. Essentially, you know, in our sector, something that's newly introduced is also an intimacy coordinator, right? So, when you think about intimacy coordinators, it's when there are intimate scenes being shot, and that's when they're hired on and brought in. We say, you know, if there are humans involved, that's when you think about accessibility. From the get-go, right? You know, intimacy is one thing, but when it comes to accessibility, again, it… affects all of us. I'll give you a quick anecdote in the sense of... I won't name the award show, but a particular nominee was a wheelchair user, and when they went to the event, they saw that there was no ramp, so they said to one of the organizers, oh, I guess I didn't win, right? They already knew that they didn't win the award, because there was no ramp. And obviously the person that received this information, they were incredibly embarrassed. They didn't even think about that. But it needed that experience to then push, you know, that work, and that thinking and that lens, but… That's not right. That's not fair. 

[Diane] And this is the person who had to stay in front of the stage to give the speech, right? 

[Winnie] Well, no, it was a nominee, so they were a potential award winner, but they… When they saw the stage that didn't have a ramp, they already knew they didn't win, right? They made that… And the fact is, they shouldn't have known, right? That information shouldn't have been shared with them in that way. 

[Diane] Yeah, I have a similar anecdote with another place where there was an awards ceremony and this person received the award and had to give the speech in front of the stage because no access to the stage. Oof! So this needs to change. 

[Winnie] Absolutely. Absolutely. 

[Diane] Okay, speaking of collaborators and people in the industry, I was wondering if you had in your career someone who really inspired you or maybe motivated you, and who transforms the way that you are currently doing your job, if you had one person to name, who would it be? 

[Winnie] I mean, right now, I would say even from my very first year, when I first started, one name kept on coming up over and over again. They're like, have you met this person? Do you know this person? And it kept on coming up, coming up. And their name is Ophira. Ophira Calof. And… I got to meet and work with them within my first year. They are a, you know, highly respected Canadian screen, they're a writer, they're a performer, they also co-lead and co-created the Disabled Producers Lab through the MSI. They also created the inaugural… the first actually ever and only accessible writers lab as well. We work with them on DSO workshops, they've also done work with our partner programs, like AccessCBC, and so they are a superstar. I mean, the fact that that name kept on being brought up to me when I first started at the DSO over and over again, and once I met Ophira, I was like, oh, this is why. And I have continued to work with them, invite them to sit on panels, so very recently, in Ottawa, I invited them to sit on our accessibility at Prime Time in Ottawa, and they do help us and work with us on our workshops as well. They're currently helping to write the case report for the Disabled Producers Lab. But what I really respect about them is that they have this ability to meet folks where they are in their accessibility journey. And they are incredibly, incredibly articulate, and have the gift of, like, storytelling, and using really clear examples of accessibility practices and accessibility justice, and make it relatable to everyone. And they just have this natural ability to draw people in, and they are creative, they are patient, and just the… a fountain of knowledge and information and really consistently always offering thoughtful insights and practical guidance in this realm, and I think, you know, for me, that, especially leading an organizational… organization like this, having the opportunity to work with someone like Ophira is just so, it's… it's incredibly… It's an honor, really, because she's been working in this field for so long, and they have the experience, the lived experience, the experience in the various… because I'm more… You know, I have been working in a film and TV for a while, but the fact that they are working as a performer, working in a writer… working as or helping and supporting producers, so really, really ingrained within the industry and sharing their experience and lived experience and all their knowledge. And I think it does take a lot of patience. And so just their ability to draw people in, and having really, again, many people, the glowing, glowing, you know, stories and recommendations of this person, and then having met with them, that's a high expectation! And they really lived up to it, and it's just been such a joy to work with them throughout my several years here at the DSO. For me, Ophira Calof is definitely one of those people that inspire me, and that I wanted to, to name. 

[Diane] Thank you. Well, I have a last question before we say goodbye. Where can we find information about DSO? 

[Winnie] Oh, yes, please! So, on our website, www.dso- O-R-P-H-E dot C A, so dso-orphe.ca, and then we also have our various social media, so whether it's Instagram, you can find us, just do a search with disability or DSO. Instagram, LinkedIn, and Facebook are our current social media channels. And so, if you go to our website, please sign up for our e-newsletter. Our e-newsletter is where we're going to put all our information, whether it's our launches of our products, and programs, or partnerships, collaborations, our friends, their events, their programs, and recruitment. So we do our recruiting and call-outs for whether it's applications for our delegations or applications for various programs, etc., or callouts for joining any of our subcommittees, or sometimes even board. So yeah, our e-news, our website, and our socials, please, join and follow and share, share the news! 

[Diane] Thank you so much, it was really a pleasure. 

[Winnie] Thank you. 

[Diane] This conversation was really a pleasure. And I know how your time is precious, so thank you for taking the time to be here today. 

[Winnie] Oh, no, absolutely. This is… this is why we exist, to share our knowledge and our stories and our programs, so thank you for inviting me to speak today. 

[Diane] Well, have a great day and see you around in one of the conferences or festival or something. 

[Laughs.] 

[Winnie] I look forward to it. Thanks, Diane. 

[Diane] Thank you. Bye. 

[Closing theme music]